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On Own Now wrote:
One I’m optimistic about is Todd Christofferson. I do feel that when he speaks, he seems to be more concerned with the hearer than the doctrine. His video on mormonsandgays.com, for example, is pretty heart-felt. He doesn’t back away from the Church’s doctrine, but is clearly seeking to re-frame the dialog into the needs of individuals rather than a dogma-based sermon. Of course it takes more than just compassion to be a ‘reformer’, but I get a sense that TC is really trying to find a mutually-beneficial approach to the questions posed on that site.
Anybody else have the same sense about him?
I noticed when I saw that site that Dallin Oaks also has a prominent presence there, but I don’t think of him as a reformer at all. In fact, I think of him as the opposite. He seems far more interested in giving pseudo-lawyer-eese justifications for doctrines and actions of the Church. On the website I’ve listed, I find his video to fall more into that category than into a conciliatory one.
There’s more than meets the eye with Dallin. Behind the scenes hes done some really, really good things in regards to help put down a lot crap local leaders were doing where I used to live. There was a lot of not criminal but really renegade authoritarian stuff going on in my old stakes. He came up from SLC pulled a bunch of them aside and threatened excommunications as I hear.
Modify standards to strong but not over dominating. 86 the Endowment Ceremony and use the temples for sealings and baptism.
Allow for less literal interpretation of scripture and loosen authoritarian structure.
Make missions more voluntary and less like conscription. Along this line make them service missions instead of door to door salesmanship.
Loosen the definition of a full tithe and encourage member to pay what they can actually afford.
Make bishop interviews less intrusive.
Include more more women in the priesthood and leadership.
Encourage YW to go and earn productive degrees/skills/trades and actually complete the degree/training instead of getting married ASAP. Same for guys.
Create private K-12 schools at affordable rates instead of wasting money on crap.
Go back to making the WOW voluntary and start selling coffee franchises to finance the above mentioned schools and service missions.
There’s probably more, but there’s always more.
We always played poker or bingo for candy or peanuts. Grandpa was a bishop and always joined in. As for chastity I think we should encourage waiting until marriage. As for Hawkgirl’s stories about BYU… My DW attended Rick’s and she knew full well some of roomies were having sex and attending the temple. The fact is we really should have good moral sexual standards. There needs to be a balance. You can set general standards and let people govern themselves and would probably get a lot more accomplished in the way of promoting healthy, moral behavior and better mental/sexual health in the member’s lives. Right now it seems we just confused, sexually un-healthy, and mentally repressed individuals. Or we have a bunch of people hiding in the shadows really not caring and causing all kinds of problems. Furthermore the overly strict and sometimes oppressive standards simply help to hide infidelity, abuse, rape etc.
I hope I’m not coming off as negative or trying to slam the church. I’m really not. I just think that as an organization a well balanced, healthy approach to standards and sexuality within healthy limits would improve the Church by leaps and bounds.
Well I ask Ray respectfully what do you think the middle way means to other people? Meaning a person who is struggling with LDS faith issues and looking for answers. What does the middle way mean to you? Yes I am a Jack-Mormon, non-observant in many ways, and there are some things within the history and doctrine I don’t believe. I don’t believe in jumping to extremes however. I’m simply pointing out that a middle road to some one who doesn’t like white shirts, yet likes a little Starbucks when they write about their disdain of polygamy, is far different than a non-practicing Mormon athiest who wants nothing to do with Mormonism while running a blog or forum calling for change and welcoming the lost and questioning. No I’m noy saying StayLDS.com or John Dehlin, which is what I think people are assuming.
I’m not sure what the middle way means anymore it seems to be just the other side of the same coin sometimes. It’s nothing personal against anyone it’s just an observation.
I’m a proud Jack-Mormon I used to hate that title but now I embrace it. I really don’t like the title of Middle Way and NOM because to many the description is so wide it’s misleading. I think most NOMs want out but can’t leave, that’s not a middle way. I don’t say that to be critical but it’s true for most. I don’t see how being agnostic/atheistic, rejecting the church and the gospel of JS, and wanting nothing to do with Mormonism or Mormon Heritage is any sort of “middle way”. I’m not saying they’re wrong nor am I in judgement of thier character. I’m just not seeing how that is a middle way, what’s left? a membership record.
I’m also not defending or making appologetics for the church, but I do see the point of many who ask the question of those who reject essentially everything. I think the orthodoxy
SHOULD go the extra mile to not cause contention within a person’s family and social relationships. I do however believe that the more and less orthodox do have some right to think, to defend, and request a modicum of belief in Mormonism in retaining membership. This is probably a very unpopular sentiment but I believe there is an under-current of extremism that simply doesn’t get addressed on many forums in regards to anti-orthodoxy. I’m not saying anything should be done about this. I’m just saying I wish there was a bit more honesty in some of the dialogue and intent of the participant’s and creators of this internet society.
Yeah the parallels are there big time with a smattering of Judeaism. I seriously considered converting one time. The beauty of Mormonism that is so lost to hardliners is that once a Mormon always a Mormon is very similar to Catholisim. Catholics may not always be orthodox but for the most part stay loyal. Mormonism could bennefit from this lesson. Personally after this last conference even with it’s ominous overtones makes me think the church is about to break some big stuff here shortly. I feel like they’re shoring up the foundation of authority to gear up for something really huge come next conference.
Don’t want to get smacked here but I hope all can respect my honesty. I never wanted wanted to serve a mission ever and didn’t. In many ways though I accept(ed) my disaffection with the church. A huge cataylist to my disaffection was due to the otrascism I received for it that pushed along inactivity for over sixteen years. A mission was not for me and I think a lot of others yet as young men we are required to go. I have always thought it was BS we had to go and the young women didn’t have to. I think that if this standard is to be maintained for young men it should be the same for young women or simply make an ephasis that it is voluntary for either sex. I’m not sure about anyone else but this to me wrong. In retrospect had I just been left alone my life would be considerably different though I love my life now as it is. The mask thing is mostly for safety like when going to the store or bank during Halloween. This is however twisted by fundy jack butts as a spiritual issue. That is why my family who adores Halloween will be and does celebrate this awesome holiday outside of church regardless of Sunday. I have a traditon of listening to Coast to Coast Am’s Ghost-to-Ghost and playing games from the Castlevania series while eating copious servings of root beer, coke, and orange floats.
I CAN’T WAIT FOR HALLOWEEN!!!!!
Steve-hpias wrote:My belief in a literal Satan is still alive and well. In my patriarchal blessing it cautioned me to know that Satan is real, and the idea of a literal being leading the underworld isn’t much of a stretch if you believe there is another literal being in charge of heaven.
Where I deviate from TBM orthodoxy on this subject is the idea that there will be no sin during the millennium because Satan will be bound. I think we tend to give Satan way too much credit for our own failings.
I would add to this and say I think it maybe that even Satan could be redeemed. I’m a bit uncomfortable saying it but I think it’s possible.
Okay Ray and Steve and any NOMs ( I participate at NOM more than here too.), I will tone down my posts and use a little less sodium. There are a few on the board over there who recently have felt that it has become quite negative even hostile with more conservative views toward church and politcs. There has also been a somewhat dominance of agnostic/athiest/humanistic views as opposed to more liberal or tradional christian viewpoints in regards to the “middle way”. Some of us want that middle way and are truely seeking it and are not doing it simply out of circumstance. Frequently when a new poster has come to the board the responses have been quite negative. There also has been a lot of posting there by some calling for harm to the church. For me that steps out of bounds in regards to a middle way.
Again I post there also and do not wish to cause any contention or division, however I would prefer that more people would recognize that just because some of us are middle way or cafeteria mormons, we do have some faith in the church as force for good and there are great distinctions between all of us.
With that said I respectfully drop the subject and will use better discretion in regards to my opinions and post relating to the subject.
For me this is just such a tough situation. I don’t want to leave and its such a part of me. I have to say it is equally as hard to stay sometimes. I actually did come up with ‘Stayer’ but by inspiration from Brain’s post title “True Confessions of a StayLDS’er”. I just came up with ‘Stayer’. I post a lot. On NOM but I just don’t fit the NOM profile anymore and kind of resent being thrown into the TBM bracket because I believe but I’m not an agnostic/athiest/humanist NOM. I still buy Mormonism after soooo many trials, hurts, and uncomfortable facts, but my strange testimony of Mormonism says it still just feels right. Frankly, I’d love for ‘Stayer’ to stick, I think we are so much more than Cultural or New Order Mormons.
Tom Haws wrote:FenixDown wrote:They are a prime example of Stayers.
I love the label you’ve coined here. Kinda rolls off the tongue.
I like the phrase but I think I heard it somewhere else and just stuck for me .
One thing I like about the Stayer POV is that it is to me organic Mormonism. The difference bteween Stayers an say NOMs is that there is belief in something predominately that still works within Mormonism. Maybe I’m over generalizing but I just can’t call BS to ALL of Mormonism, even though I see a lot I can equate to myth, legend, or some as just BS. I think the Stayer position is also more positive and reconcilliatory. I’m not saying and, I’m sure most of us agree that ther is no right way bu there is a different more general direction of the Stayer. I’m not one for labels necessarily but I think there are tremendous differences in the non-traditonal or less orthodox Mormons.
I site my parents for example. They are a prime example of Stayers. Dad is totally inactive and doesn’t follow many of the TBM rules. He’d love to wear garments but has no reccomend. My mom is a spiritual TBM very very orthodox toward the Gospel and the bretheren. However she can’t stand the church socially in many ways. Both are conservavtive libertarians but almost discard belief in most non-moral commandments.
I guess this was ingrained in me from an early age although we were pretty active during our teen years in my family, we had very strict rules in many ways but very theologically liberal principals at the same time.
I guess to sum it up paradoxically we were liberal fundamentalists liek some crazy form of Unitarian Mormons. Despite my struggles I think I came out a better person for it, and in a strange way it seems to have prepared me for this undefined mission to encourage others faith by sharing my own. I feel as though God created me to preach to the choir of unique and eccentric Mormons.
