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Brian I just wanted to give you a shout out. I listened to you on a fairly recent podcast with John Dehlin that I thought was really good. I like your style and your “testimony” is pretty similar mine I think in some ways. I’ve seen you post at NOM here and there and I really wish you would post more often. I believe that the middle way is a lot more tennable than people tend to think. I often get discouraged when I see people with some doubt get sucked over to NOM as if it were the only or best way. Its really sad to me as I feel NOM does serve a purpose, but encourages a lot of negativity and an all or nothing approach more often than not. Recently Mike Tannehill was banned from NOM, while I think some censure would have been appropriate banning I believe was uncalled for. I am more of a non-literalist/reconcilliatory Mormon and I feel as though when I or others say anything positive there we get shut down pretty quick.
StayLDS links to NOM. I actually was at NOM before here. I frequently see many posters almost automatically suggest NOM to even the slightest doubter. I think this in many cases is not a good thing and my encourage or accellerate false/minor doubt.
I’d like to know your thoughts or anyone elses. How would/do you go about helping friends or family who have doubts?
Yeah I guess my complaint is not so much of the church investing as I think the money could be better spent enriching the life at church. I’m not one of the FLAKer types though that believes the church is a business disguised as a church though. I must also say that the church giving out “helicopter” style welfare is a good or even realisitc idea. I guess I’m giving a “stayer’s” perspective in that yes I think the church is using money in ways I don’t always like or agree with, but no I don’t think the church is in the stocks and real estate business swindling it’s members. I was homeschooled from grade eight. I loved it! My two youngest siblings were all their life. I really wish DW would consider it but almost refuses. We don’t have kids and might not even be able to. As far as church magazines go I’m just not big on them. Most of the material is available online for free and I’m sorry but much of the content is just “milk”. I would much rather invest the money in a Nibley or Bushman book than rehash the same material over and over. The execption I might make is The Friend, I think it’s a cute and fun magazine and seems to be fun for little ones.
It kind of surprises me also how critical some members of the church are of homeschooling. My cousin whom I love dearly is unfortunately one of such idiots. She blames my aunt’s half-baked version of homeschooling for her siblings falling away from the church. BTW she lives in a small Utah Mormon dominated community while my family lived in a PNW city in an area of town where gang and drug-related activity was an ever present plaugue until about five to ten years ago. Her mother moved here during this time after my cousin was attending BYU. My cousin has never lived outside of Utah and even then mostly in small farming communities but seems to have all the answers as to why people outside the MorCor leave or have difficulties with church activity.
I think its been said about a million times, but I think we set ourselves for big falls when we really start demanding truth. Truth is just too subjective. I think there is kind of a truth-o-meter that slides back and forth between true and false. The thing I think we tend to do is equate true and false with correct and incorrect. I think this question comes up way way way too much in the Mormon world for either side to the point I get a migraine. I think the scripture is the biggest culprit for this and then come the ham sandwiches.
As for the first vision regardless of the accounts JS I believe did have a vision and maybe it happened different in each recollection in his mind we won’t know until we can get in his mind.
For me it just doesn’t matter anymore either JS had something happen or didn’t . When I look at it from that point of view I can say no it doesn’t matter. It’s jsut one of those things you can’t know for sure from a factual scientific basis. There are just some things in this world we have to boil down to faith.
I guess from the truth or false dichotomy we can say that there are multiple accounts of the first vision, so strictly on that basis I guess you’d have to take the first or last account.
I think though if we ask ourselves that, what was the point of the story? I think I can accept JS had a supernatural experience that was from God. Whatever the details the lesson to be learned is that God is here, alive, and with us.
The problem for me is attacks on character to discredit. There fore we can throw out the constitution because Thomas Jefferson was screwing around with slaves. SilentDawning wrote:FenixDown wrote:Haha for all you know they could’ve been JWs and confused them with Mormons. I say set the example be a good person and wear the title Mormon. We’re just too new to avoid stereo-types. I supposed I reserve myself to using equally applied force and it seems to work like a charm.
Upon reflection, I might end up talking to the students personally about my involvement, letting them know I’m not offended, but also correcting their false beliefs and their social blunder. I think that would be better than a public grandstanding in front of everyone at the time, potentially embarrassing the people who made the social blunder.
I also have a bit of a concern, though, with everyone knowing I’m LDS. It never used to bother me, and in the beginning, I was proud to be a Mormon. HOwever, life’s experiences and exposure to some of the questionable doctrines and history, which is still fairly new from the perspective of world history, I’m now on the fence about whether I’m actually proud to be a Mormon. Hate to say it, buy it’s true.
The fact SD is however it’s not your choice. Mormonism is a sub-culture, when I was going out to bars drinking, etc my friends always said I was a Mormon. Even ExMos are still Mormons by culture. If you want to effect change in the Mormon world we need to show it as such to the secular world. In other words we must let others know that Mormon does not mean white shirt and name tag only, but a diverse culture that includes the ENTIRE spectrum of the Latter-day Saint movement.
Haha for all you know they could’ve been JWs and confused them with Mormons. I say set the example be a good person and wear the title Mormon. We’re just too new to avoid stereo-types. I supposed I reserve myself to using equally applied force and it seems to work like a charm. Well I’m not sure what you can do. DW and I basically just do Sacrament meeting. You can remain active if you so choose. I had to get over one thing to come back to church, MY EGO! yes that’s right my ego. The fact is there are a lot of people at church with alot different beliefs so if I want to play I have to play nice. This whole integrity issue with those who are dissaffected kind of annoys me. Leaving the church is perfectly respectable and reasonable if convictions warrant. However if the issues are so big that you feel it’s living a lie (I am including myself here) then frankly it is time to leave or start the transition or even finish the transition. Of course the alternative is independent mormonism ala StayLDS or NOM(Ugghh). Eventually you will have to choose one of the three paths. In the mean time try “home churching” your children. Ask them what they learned at church on Sunday and teach them like you teach them about anything else. It’s no more difficult than teaching them how to do thier homework. Let them know that the home is thier home and no one else’s. Let them also know that you are the parent and until they’re grown that your rules (including church-based rules) are the rules of the home. Establish a “chain of command” Mom and Dad then family than church.
I was raised in a very faithful home but my parents firmly established that our family reigned supreme over the church’s rules and regs. To do anything else I frankly think is ingenuine. It seems your DH is onboard if you want to bail the rip-cord is yours. If your conviction is that strong you NEED to act upon it whichever direction it might lead.
acarlton wrote:I am a life long active LDS Temple endowed Mormon and also an active Free Mason. I fail to see why people make such a big deal out of the tie between Masons and Mormons. Personally, I think the tie is a positive thing. It’s frustrating to see people blow either organization into something that it’s not!
AMEN! I can’t say it enough. Frankly I think it’s kind of cool and unique. Then again what do I know…. I’m the ward’s silent apostate and the apologist-schill-uncle-Tom at NOM.
I would say a great many members are ignorant of the whole ceremony first of all and on the grand scheme of things relatively few members actually go to the temple in light of how many are on the books. Second I think the whole experience to most is frankly unpleasant and kind of see the whole thing as a kind of “what the blank was that?” moment. By the time you’ve crossed that bridge you have few paths to go from there none of which are a small life-step.
Okay so let’s suppose if you are astute enough to recognize the similarity between Masonic and Temple ritual that’s going to lead you in the direction of: a) This is everything JS claimed it to be. b) This is a crazy arse ritual and I’m not doing it anymore, in or out of the church. c) This is JS’s way of teaching a primative Mormon culture in an understandable way because they were farmilliar with Masonry. or d) I know about the fact and I’m not going.
Basically whether it is devine, man-made, symbolic, or a synthesis of all three it really comes down to do it or not.
Unless the church makes a decision on the matter to change or remove the ordinance, you leave the church, or simply don’t participate I don’t see why it matters if it is an ordinance from God or not.
It is secularly pretty much proven and excepted that the origin of the ceremony is clearly not from the days of Solomon.
As far as Solomon goes I see no reason as a believer or not to have a modern day condemnation of the man. You must suppose as a believer he will be judged by God as such. As a non believer who cares if he even existed? If you are a believer and you still think Solomon is a jerk: a) God will judge him. b) God is a jerk who likes jerks like Solomon so you’re screwed for second guessing God. c) This is a bunch of BS even if Solomon was real he’s long dead and so are his concubines so again who cares? d) The bible is full of paradoxical teaching that we must navigate the best we can.
I don’t mean to sound so cynical so please forgive me. The mysteries of God are what they are to the believer. I think however you can reduce these subject to a series of conclusions easily. The difficult problem is how does one incorporate them into our lives and beliefs? If you believe but are somehow angry at God over Solomon’s life and actions, I really don’t see how it makes a difference. We are not God. We Don’t understand why he does what he does. What are you going to do though? Organize a protest against God? Become a Satanist in Protest?
I understand being angry at God and religion if you believe, but frankly God’s the boss and someone you are bound to loose the argument with. If you don’t believe than why does it matter? Solomon is long dead and gone it makes no sense to me to beat up on long dead historical/mythical figures nor the horse they rode on.
Firat of all I don’t see a lot wrong with masonry and its stated goals. Lots of early saints were masons and much was borrowed from a lot of other things besides masonry in mormon worship. Guess I’m a bit insensitive here, but who cares? If the temple is just mumbo jumbo masonry why worry about it? If its not than maybe masonry is something all can learn from. If masonry is selective then what’s the big deal about JS opening to men and women to help enlighten them. I just don’t get a lot of these beefs like the mormon/mason thing. There are millions of good mason that do many great things so what is the big deal? Masonry is not a religion but it does require one to belive in something so again, what’s the big deal? To me this issue is kind of dead. If you want to stay lds but don’t like the temple then don’t go. If its a bunch of bunk then why put a lot of stock in it? I know history has its problems but to continue to dwell on some makes me ask why?
I don’t mean to discount concerns totally but there are so many other fish to fry this one just is a closed issue to me. I don’t pretend to speak for the church but i’d venture to guess that the temple will be something entirely different in the future sooner than one migh think.
I couldn’t agree more. This suppositon that we must be perfect to do something great really irritates the crap out of me. I also think it’s funny how many of these same critics emulate their own contemporary heros as perfect. They overlook flaws and frequently justify them through the filtered eyes of contemporary witness as though heros of the past were somehow unhuman evil-doers without redemption. I once had to stay after church to help my bishop as a teen. His eldest son was also my best friend. Needless to say the whole family and myself went to dinner at the Old Country Buffet that same Sunday. I have always hated Sundays they were more a day of work than anything and they are akin to Monday in my book. That being said for the most part I enjoy church now, and while I’ve pretty much always hated Sunday I enjoy not working and having the day off. If we all were in tents in the wilderness and or farmed the land, Sunday would be most welcome from the break of everyday life. Today Sunday and the supposed keeping it holy the LDS way is one commandment niether I nor DW keep in strict observence. Mostly sunday is spent at church and doing as we please as we are both busy and working most of the week so It’s a family and relaxation day. If relaxing includes some shopping oh well. i don’t worry about a church member seeing us shopping cause if they’re shopping well… you know the drill.
I have to agree with the concensus of the board and say Sunday is a day for family and relaxing how you do that is up to you. My feeling is God, Family, and the Gospel trumps church anyway.
I guess in my journey through mormonism I find myself caring less and less what other members and sometimes, even spacifically what leaders think about my brand of Mormonism within the raesonable confines of orthodoxy and culture. the Sabbath is kindof like God giving us a vacation day so to speak. I find that going to the ocean and reflecting the majesty of such and my awe at our Heavenly Father’s creation and my realationship with my life is a perfect lesson in the almighty and trumps listening to some wind bag at FT complaining about corns on thier feet or the last blessing they got from thier last cold or cough. I don’t wish to be so callous and I actually love FT meeting more than half the time, but sometimes worship is best observed outside of the chapel.
I’d try focusing on the things you do know. Like: I know I love my wife/kids/family.
I know my life would not be the same without the church.
If you believe in God or Jesus say it. (this may not work for some.?
Etc.
I think sometimes we need to give the word “know” a little wiggle room. Call it Mormon speak like the thees, thous, and such.
Try this: I faith in my knowledge of the church. Or I have a strong faith in…
I guess maybe I’m a sell-out as many on many other boards might say. But nobody else really knows either. Try substituting faith for knowelege, I can say without doubt I have faith in God/HF/Jesus. Or try I know my faith in the church is true. Your faith could be the church is bogus, but you are stating you belief/faith is a true belief or faith one way or the other.
I personally have a strong faith in God and Jesus so I have no problem stating it, but there are ways that can be edifing noneless even as an unsure believer or non-believer.
