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Tom, a few years ago and neither would I. I’ve had a massive change on many of my opinions to the point where the only thing I can do is maintain a sort of zen-like limbo at the center of the kalidescope of faith. “Praise To The Man” is definately not popular in the world of ‘outside’ Mormonism the song has a much different meaning to me than it used to. :ugeek: Brian Johnston wrote:Tom Haws wrote:So staying LDS is morally harmful, case closed?
Judaism, Christianity and Islam all use the Old Testament stories.
Using the OT literally would be a problem though for anyone that used it as a literal instruction manual for how to run their life and their community today. It actually may have been a functional mythology 3,000 years ago in the extermination-style, tribal warfare environment of the middle east. Even then … was it morally harmful? It was not as enlightening from my perspective today, but that’s evolution and progress, I hope.
That’s the funny thing about history is that one in the present can look upon it from the present and make all kinds of conclusions. I wonder how the future generations will look upon us. The current war while there are many different views on it, has relatively light casualties as well many of the more recent and ancient wars. During medieval times whole families would follow a soldier to war much like a nomadic temporary tribe. And while text may make it sound like a massive battle, a few hundred might be all who participate.
The other thing to take note of is that much of the OT is encapsulated, and a small passage could encompass many decades. The Bible itself was made of many, many texts altogether. A small tribe’s record of a war may only have just a few skirmishes and a few casualties but could be devastating to the tribe due to it’s size.
A good example would be the Cattle Wars of the 1800’s a big part of history and the lives of those who fought it, possibly devastating but still a relatively light war. Even the Hatfields and McCoy’s, two feuding families but big part of history.
I think the big lesson is that violence begets violence. The teachings of Jesus were teachings of peace which I think shows the need for the Atonement of Christ and the NT vs. the OT a very brutal time and general disposition of the ancient world. Violence is probably the greatest sin of mankind and the greatest lesson to learn. If we all just got up and went to work everyday and lived our lives how great would the world be?
Thanks Brian. I thought as much. My family went through the temple about 18 years ago. What I was always taught was that they were just like underwear but that some people went to extremes in keeping them on. I personally think TGs look comfortable I always wear boxer briefs and tees anyway so if/when DW and I go to the temple it won’t be a big deal as far as comfort goes. It has always surprised me how when people leave the church they say how great it is to not wear TGs as if that longing to wear a speedo can now be fullfilled. As far as the spiritual aspect I take kind of a middle view to it. It’s kind of like the US flag, it does symbolize something and should be treated with respect but what’s truely importiant is the meaning behind it. I think you should wear TGs in a respectful manner but I don’t agree with some of the historically earlier extremes people go to wear them. One question I have is there a tank/sleeveless style top? Not that you would wear it exposed but it does get hot in the summer and certain places of the world. Not hymms but inspirational: King Without a Crown and Jerusalem by Matisyahu
Personal Jesus, Sacred, Get Right With Me, and generally Depeche Mode’s albums.
Johnny Cash.
There’s way too many for me to list but there was a really tough time in my life where the meanings of many of those songs struck me to tears.
Yeah I’m really not that enlightened when it comes to helping the arrogant. My family from the time time they joined the church and left Switzerland have walked this path. Maybe in the pre-existence we just made the cut. This one got me just just a bit SD because I hate arrogant people and find myself helping them all the time. I’m a janitor for a school district. I work around people every day who think I’m stupid, lazy, etc. I constantly surprise them something I know that they do not and find myself helping people who consider them my better. The funny thing is I grudging find myself helping people all the time and going the extra mile to do so. I just recently helped my boss who on many levels I cannot stand with her son’s wedding. I guess that’s why Han Solo was always my favorite Star Wars character. He didn’t have the cool spaceship nor Jedi powers but he was always finding himself in the thick of it.
mormonheretic wrote:I posted a longer version of this at Mormon Matters, but I wanted to share a few things here as well. (See
http://mormonmatters.org/2010/07/25/songs-that-touch-our-hearts/ Since yesterday was Pioneer Day, I thought I’d share my thoughts on one of my favorite Pioneer Hymns. Most of you are probably familiar with
Come, Come Ye Saints. It was one of my sister’s favorite songs, and she requested that it be played at her funeral. While I always liked the song, I can rarely sing it without getting a bit emotional as I think of my sister. She was the oldest in my family. My father was a convert, and always referred to her as “the pioneer” of the family. Perhaps that is why she liked the song so much. The last verse is the one that always causes me to think about my sister.
My sister died from a brain tumor. She struggled through radiation and chemotherapy for nearly 2 years before succumbing. I often feel like she died before her journey was through, but I am glad she is free from toil and sorrow too. I often wish her life was spared again, but it wasn’t.
She left behind 4 small children under the age of 10. Three of them are in college now, and the other is a senior in high school. They have coped very well, and are excellent people.
My brother died 4 years ago in a tragic auto accident. He was about the same age as my sister when she died (36). He also left behind 4 small children under the age of 7. At the funeral, the closing song was “God Be With You Till We Meet Again.”
I can remember singing this song at the end of meetings, and thinking it was a nice song to end the meeting. I planned on meeting everyone the next week at church again. But when it was played at the funeral, it took on a whole new meaning. I usually can’t sing the song anymore, but I love to listen to it.
I can’t wait to see my brother again. So, what are some songs that touch your heart?
Those two, Praise to the Man, and BOM Stories were and are my favorites!Welcome. I think many people here can relate. This site actually really helped me want to come back to church. I hope you will enjoy the conversation here and that it will be helpful on your journey of spiritual enlightenment. I think salvation is relative to one’s time, place, and journey through life. If you were a Roman or Celtic warrior that fought in countless battles worshiping Pagan Gods and commiting what a Christian calls wickedness and by modern standards attrocities. Then your idea of coming to Christ, giving up sacrafice, Pagan rituals, and being saved would be a far cry different from an elderly Pentacostal woman giving up tea to beome LDS. The same holds true for many converts today. Frankly the difference between a modern Saint vs. a first generation Saint say in Sidney Rigdeon’s congregation is wildly different. Another good example is somone like Brandon Flowers of The Killers. He says he’s LDS but doesn’t really go out of his way to show it. Who really knows what his depth of knowledge is in the Church. I for one would not test his faith nor anyone else’s, but who knows what level of orthodoxy he or anyone else practices at? Matthew Modine is a big example of that question.
I think this is one of those cola vs. coffee questions. I’m not endowed and niether is DW. From what I’ve heard you wear them the same as underwear. You don’t shower in them do you? I don’t shower in my underwear, nor swim, nor when engaged in intimate marital activities. So maybe I’m not the best person to answer this I can only go by examples given. I think the garment is a symbolic piece of clothing I don’t think it should or was meant to be so litteral. I like a lot of what’s being said here in this thread. I think that there are two kinds of revalation. General revelation for the world at large, and personal revelation. Just like the scriptures we find different meanings on an individual level in private or in a small group. The same can be said for general revelation. If president Monson says we should prepare for disaster with a 72 hour kit it maybe that if you live in a remote region that this maybe a 144 hour kit. If you owned a factory that made MREs you wouldn’t need one at all. I think this is true for pretty much anything in life there are general guidlines to follow but there are always exceptions. Have you ever watched a Clint Eastwood movie? or my favorite Tombstone? I know for those on the boards this may seem an appoligetic answer but sometimes evil men/women must be fought with the same violence. I’m not saying become a vigilante but consider the times and context of which the OT was written or atleast the reflection of those times. By all accounts historically and biblically they were violent times. Considering the fact that in our own modern history we have lost tens of thousands in a single batttle. The other thing to consider is the fact that sometimes you simply cannot speak rationally with a warlike people or culture. We like to think we can but sometimes we cannot. Adolph Hitler for example was one whom couldn’t be reasoned with even by his own generals. Stalin, Mao, any number of individuals couldn’t be reasoned with through speach. On a smaller scale in our own civilized countries look at some of the violence on the street over drugs and gangs. Some may say that it is due to socio-economics but the true fact is some people are just plain wicked and evil. At times these atittudes can become the status quo of a given nation.
In the instance of Laban consider having a police chief who is on both sides of the law like the character played by Gene Hackman in Unforgiven. Or imagine Tony Soprano has all your geneolgy and family photos. How would you get these things back from him in a peaceful way? Think of the reprecussions of taking them from him and leaving him alive?
How about Pharo? Even after the Isrealites were let go he still sought revenge? The OT gives us a glimpse of Humankind’s propensity to continue acting immorally or wickedly until the ultimate loss of free-agency which is death when we can no longer physically exercise the choice to commit wrong doings.
As I recall the war in heaven Satan said he would save all by making us bend to his will thus saving all by force. If we all were to simply follow the example of Christ, free agency would prevail. Unfortunately the wickedness in the hearts of men may prompt some to seek dominion of those who would not fight back.
To me it is yet another mystery of God that I believe he intends us to judge and ponder.
Hi SB. Saw you at NOM. Welcome. It’s funny I started at NOM as well. I suppose it’s going backward in a lot of people’s “stages”. Anyway nice to have you here. BTW Depeche kicks! Ray I like your statements, and agree with them in many ways. I think where the church goes wrong and not necessarily wrong but could be better is, the Church is a highly structured entity and as such has a tendency to create a pseudo-theocracy. What I mean is that the upper leadship needs to dispell the myth that just because one is called everything they do is inspired. Unlike many on the boards like StayLDS, NOM, and others I don’t believe in the evil LDS Inc. However, the only way the dogmatic, hardline, and less enlightend of the Church will continue to operate in an autocratic theocracy mindset. If Pres.Monson were to say “Hey lighten up!” they would listen or leave. I think they would listen. I personally have experienced too many micro dictators at church and I think that while yes they may have many good traits, they are destroying the church at it’s foundations by having thier more hardline personal doctrines re-inforced by silence in SLC. I personally think that the Q15 slump in thier chairs at night in exasperation in many cases when dealing with the soft-fundamentalism of some TBMs. I recently consulted with an attorney over some financial matters and by federal standards $100.00/mo. was the national average amount paid as charitable/religious contribution. If you really want to look at it biblically/religiously you should be willing to give all to God as he has given you everything. Without sounding too snarky the church should be doing the same.
$50-$1000 per month is more than reasonable to give to the Church in total donations per month depending on income in the western world. I think this is a personal matter that really ought to be resolved personally. I will however state this. Growing up there were arguments between my parents as to what was the proper amount given to tithing. We were very poor and ten percent whether gross or net was more than we could afford as a family.
It IS the Church’s responsibility to honor the family structure and family unit. If tithing causes a financial strain on a family then I believe this is a great sin upon the hands of those in the Church who would demand a strict payment as such. Furthermore financial problems are one of the biggest problems contributing to divorce.
I will not say that we shouldn’t give to the church. I do believe however that the Church has no right to require one to pay tithing as a measurement of good standing if they are unwilling to clearly define the measure required to do so. They should also disclose how WE the body of the church is spending the money. If the Church will not give a set requirement OFFICIALLY, not as some arbitrary CULTURAL CUSTOM, then the responsibility to determine the amount of tithing paid should be determined by the same vague method.
If the paying of tithing is a vague commandment then it should be followed vaguely and therefore by the letter of the law is fulfilled.
I really think that one thing people tend to forget and one of the things fundementalism/cults destroy is the uniqueness of body, soul, and mind. Religion is only a guideline to help us maintian faith. Only God/HF can judge us ultimately. He is the only one who truley knows us. Religion, belief, faith, and dogma are simply there as filters for the mind. At some point all of us have a fundamentalist point of view, the problem is when we can’t snap out of it. I watched a doc about Jonestown the people there showed varying levels of belief at points in the doc. The problem and tragedy was that they couldn’t escape when they felt it was time to leave.
