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I would not say that they absolutley don’t care. I would say however that the local leadership need advisement, council, and sometimes a slap on the wrist for alot of the bravo sierra that some leaders pull. Secondly I think it would be extremely helpful for the leadership in SLC to lighten up on people. I know the diehards will say “Well … Let’s just let everyone do what they want…etc, etc.” The problem comes down to culture becoming policy and it being acceptable. Some will say that it is simply people exercising free agency, I dissagree.
Frankly I think it should come down to a handful of broad questions in regards to worthiness.
Do you have a testimony?
Do you do your best to follow the commandments?
Do you have anything you feel we need to address?
Is there anything that the Church can help you with?
Is there anything you feel you can help the ward/branch/stake/church with?
Why there needs to be this whole long process and layer after layer of dogma, discussion, etc. is beyond my senses.
It’s really funny to me as a student of Tudor history and history in general how the Church is almost replicating the events of the Reformation in the microcasm of the Church. Not directly in a side by side comparison but close enough to make one wonder what the future holds. I have read many arguments on many boards varying in opinion as to wether or not the Church is growing or declining. I would say it is stagnant and sliding slowlty toward decline.
In my personal life I know all seven of my immediate family are on the churches records as members but only my mother is semi-active and I am moderately active, the rest are inactive with 4 of us ranging from hatred to ambivelant dispostions toward the church but still counted as seven. My friends growing up about 33% of aprox. 30 youths active in the church today and about 90% of the 33% had major lapses becoming active again.
My old ward was in the third largest city in WA state and the ward has had major problems and a rapid succession of bishops in the past 15 years a total of six bishops atleast half asking for early release.
Finally my parents families out 17 children from each side none on my father’s side are active. 3 from my mother’s side are even semi-active. These were heavily active people in the past but since the early nineties most have left unofficially and some have formally resigned.
If my examples are red-herrings so be it but both sides of my family are UT second gen. or BIC Mormons. This example to me speaks volumes of the un-recorded decline in the church. Some of this is socio-political in nature but I would say mostly it is due to the culture of Mormon Fuedalism especially prevalent in the Mormon Corridor and to a lesser degree soft-apostasy and the aforementioned psuedo-culture of the South Puget Sound Area.
I believe these issues could and should be addressed from the leadership in Salt Lake. I daresay even chastening from the leadership is in order. While I would like to see a more enlightened approach and scholarly freedom of doctrinal and spirtual issues, there should be a reigning in of these local leaders who take advantage of thier position in the church and blatant hubris of the more established families that have formed these little dynasties within the church.
You may ask what my solution is. It is quite simply a leveling of the playing field. I have seen some members of the church “get away” with all kinds of breaks from church standards while poor, less fortunate, and less established families/members get the book thrown at them of simply made unwelcome. The solution is simple simplify the requirements for membership and eligibility to hold callings. Adopt a sort of honor system and a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. Furthermore, It is true the BoM is the foundation of our religion but it doesn’t have to be fact to be true.
Lastly de-regulation of ward boundries coupled with a softer policy regarding membership and degree of testimony ephasised at the level of the Church presidency I believe would strengthen the culture of Mormonism and create a level of understanding and brotherhood which would in turn grow the Church while strengthening the foundations of the faith.
Wow sounds like a tough road. Welcome. My best advice GF is you need to drop the guilt like a ton of bricks. Pray a lot. Study a lot. If you are in good standing with the Curch keep it that way. I would also say in the future, and this is just my opinion, unless it would cause a divorce, jail-time, or something that would seriously alter your life, keep it between you and God/Heavenly Father. I can only relate my experience with the bishopric but I wouldn’t feel the need to tell your bishop or stake president everytime you do something that isn’t exactly in line with the church. You will only be miserable. You should follow council when it is good and you feel comfortable with it. I would suggest you take some of the already aforementioned advice in addition to some ‘home-churching’ i.e. do some things at home that brings you spiritual nurishment outside of the church.
Not judging you here at all, that’s not my intent, but I think that if you don’t learn to let go of some of your guilt for your past, you will get into a vicious cycle of inactivity, repententance, guilt, then inactivity.
I’ve seen a few people close to me go through this and I’m going to be one of those to tell you it’s tough. If you can and I’m by no means telling you this is easy but make every effort to balance your life. Supplement your LDS spirituality with other good things. I would even suggest meditation and a lot of silent prayer. Self help media could also be bennificial in quest. ‘Let Go and let God’ is a good phrase to remember. Yesterday was yesterday. What counts is today and tomorrow.
The Assemblies of God and Islam are the fastest growing faiths in the US and World. I actually love the Assemblies of God in many ways and wish the Church could emmulate some of what they do right. I’m really not here to bash the LDS Church but something really has to give. I would say that the environment of the church needs to change drastically and strengthen the members we already have. Support the growth of families and unify the church. We loose members wether or not the numbers want to reflect it or not. I’m not saying abandon the good things but a conservative reformation (not necessarily in the political sense) needs to happen. Frankly, more open admission to the temple, less focus on literalisic doctrine, more basic and broad bishop/sp interviews, drop the conscription style mission calls, bigger emphasis on comunity building programs, LDS private K-12s, better Youth Programs, better mid-singles programs, more women in leadership positions, last but not least and most controversial… open some/all preisthood ordinations to women.
Maybe I’m just a heritic.
Maybe I’m not the best to answer this question or give opinion. However here goes. I would take anything I hear from anyone anywhere with not only a grain of salt but with a salt lick. This sounds horrible and possibly negative, but with my life experience in anything but especially at church, I’ve had to look at advice from leadership as a proverbial piece of chocolate you NEVER know what you’re going to get. Frankly I trust them only as far as I want thier advice to impact me. To be honest I have had absolutely horrible experiences with the leadership at the local level. I no longer trust them with desicions that I can’t afford to take bad advice on. I had a bishop council me to not date my DW. This wasn’t implicit but was highly encouraged. I met this bishop the next Sunday and he asked me how things were going with my ex and if the divorce had been finalized. I was perplexed to say the least because I have never been married I had spoken to him many times when I first gone back to church and told him just about every detail of my life and why I had come back.
My now DW’s bishop told both of us simply to come to church, take the sacrament, continue plans to get married and the rest would follow. Now I’m not saying my former bishop was a bad guy but for someone, anyone to give you council as profound as to break a relationship and pursue callings etc. yet not know after weeks of sunday meetings pouring you heart out that you had to remind them that you were never married speaks volumes.
This experience as well as worse ones was not going to stop me from being happy and attending church. However I really realized I needed to take responsibility for my own spirituallity. It also re-inforced my belief in my UU approach to Mormonism. Once you take that step of becoming a ‘Freelance Mormon’ you just can’t ever go back.
Leaders are human just like the rest of us. That sword cuts both ways however. So I have come to the conclusion to take the leadership of the church for what they are. Take the good and leave the bad. When you take the responsibility of personal revelation, guidence, and decernment, I believe you become closer to HF and a stronger Christian and Latter-Day Saint.
Tom Haws wrote:The other day in the car I asked my 11-year-old son out of the blue, “I can’t understand this. Why would Joseph Smith have said that his church was ‘the only true and living church on the face of the earth’?”
He answered, “Maybe he wanted to get more people in the church.”
😮 Sounds good to me.
LOL I think the problem here is that the statement is loaded as heavy as a dumptruck. JS was charismatic as were his statements. The problem is he is also the founder of Mormonism. I think the big problem is that JS and BY made many statements in the vane of Obi Wan and Yoda, They were ‘from a certain point of view’ style statements. Unfortunately we also have alot of Luke Skywalkers who train Jedi when they don’t have all the training themselves. They/we have to get thier hand chopped off by Darth Vader to learn what Yoda and Obi Wan really meant. Then we get mad when we find out that we made out with our sister on Hoth and we’re grossed out. Then the guy that chopped off our hand we end up redeeming after he almost kills us. The moral being that if you can get through all of this alive, you get to have an awesome party with Ewoks in a pretty cool tree house.😈 Frankly I just pay what what I can. What I feel is right. It’s God/HF’s money. Sorry but this is just how I feel. The Church doesn’t know what DW or I make and I’m not telling them it’s not thiers, pay what you think you honestly would pay God if he came to your door and asked. If you can live with that then I think you’re doing just fine. It is on the Church’s shoulders if it’s not being spent the way it should be. 😈 Maybe I’m over simplifying here, but to me I’d say the LDS Church ‘big picture’ is what makes the most sense. It makes sense to me that there is more than one God but the God we know is our God ie. Our Heavenly Father. The teaching that we are here to learn to become a God eventually and life being the first step makes sense to me just on the basis that nature itself moves in circles of death and rebirth. Almost every religious tradition teaches that life is but a test or trial. The question is for what? That is were Mormonism made total sense to me after years of study and mental exercise, questioning, study, etc. The ‘Most True’ statement is simply the more digestable simple food for thought. I hate this statement on many levels but I must say that it’s true, ‘milk before meat’. It’s very true. However I think that we must all experience the cold hard dogmas of life and religion before we can be enlightened. To me dogma is God’s version of training wheels. We need them, initially anyway. When we find the contradiction of scripture, teachings, and dogma we then become forced to judge and decide without the crutch of someone telling us what to do. We have to ask ourselves as well as the creator how to proceed. Sometimes we get answers sometimes we don’t but I think eventually we come to a point where that light comes on…and eureka! We are able to see through much of the fog and mysteries of God and the universe. Many times it leads us to more questions and mysteries which in turn makes us progress further.
When we get to the real meat of Mormonism I think it is more appropriate to say that it is the best guess or theory. It may be arrogant to say but in many cases the general membership of any faith just can’t handle much of what is presented to them without some serious study and many are happy to have the answers they want to hear given.
The freedom of thought and conscience is a heavy responisbility. It is a heavier burden to carry and harder road to travel. I think many who have crisis’ of faith are simply on the next step of progression, ready for the meat of spirituality. It means accepting the fact that those in leadership and those we work with are not ready to give yopu the answers and frequently do not have them. That is when we must turn to the Creator and the spirit within all of us where in a small way we put our feet in the proverbial shoes of God. We are given a taste of what it is like.
Think of the scritpures and teachings as an instruction manual, just one, for every make, model, and year of every car on earth. It may give you the general description of an engine and the general theory of the combustion engine. but it would be almost impossible to give direct instruction for every single problem you may experience with any given vehicle. Following this analogy we would need a mechanic to guide us along some are better than others some know more than others. Some are better at working on some cars or better at certain parts. So puttting that into perspective no one has all of what we need to know so we therefore must seek guidance and pursue answers.
My conclusion is we will never know everything nor will anyone else. We must take charge of our own salvation with a few guides and hints along the way. There are few absolutes and when discover that we know we are progressing, When we realize there are few absolutes we can deal and judge with the contradictions of life and faith better. We are able to absorb more knowledge. If God is intellegence and intellegence is knowlege and God is eternal then so is knowledge and intellegence. So if the big picture is to become like God and we are to be like God and he was once as we were then it makes sense that we must learn like God.
I think faith, religion, and science are an elixer for the mind which must be finely balanced. I think that superstition and science call eachother the fool and religion their whipping boy. Faith and spirituality must blend if we are to have balance. It strikes me as more than coincidence that almost everyeverything worthwhile in life requires balance to make it so. I really think there are huge differences between a cultural believer and a spiritual believer. Cultural believers seem live, believe, and follow all of the doctrines, dogmas, rules and regs of Mormonism. Spiritual believers in my opinion and observation are akin many times to the believing Jack-Mormon of cafe/buffet Mormon which I personally identify with. I accept many or most things but I am Liberal THEOLOGICALLY while retaining core LDS beliefs. I don’t think most NOMs fit the Spiritual Believer archetype. I’m not trying offend or pick on NOMs. However it seems to me most NOMs are involved culturally for a plethora of reasons good, bad or otherwise. My exepirience is that most would leave the Church if the impact was not so negative.
Then there are the LDS Reformists, I think that segment is very, very large and hard to pin down. I think alot of Reformist issues and talking points have alot to do with socio-politics and thier relation to the church. I however like alot of what Reform Mormon’s discuss and the bottom-up style of theological practice.
I’d just like to say that I do respect most/many of all the viewpoints presented in the various groups but I think there are several sub-sets of TBM, NOM, Reformists, and Ex-Mo’s.
If I had to break it down I’d have to say there’s Non-Orthodox TBMs, Orthodox TBMs, Cultural NOMs, Reformist/Progressive NOMs, Believing Jack-Mormons, Ex-Mo/Lapsed-Jack-Mormons. I think the real defining lines though come down to these questions:
Method of Practice? Orthodox/Non-Orthodox/Non-Practicing
Believing? Yes/No/Yes and No
I like the concept of the temple, but I don’t think it was or is today what it was supposed to be. I don’t believe the Temple is necessary. The bonds of Heaven and Earth are eternal regardless of the Temple. I believe that it’s both. That we are taught to be good stewards of nature and our fellow man both equally. That we shouldn’t squander the gifts that have been created. That as good stewards we reap the bennifits of the earth and familial tranquility with our fellow souls. If we do not then narture and humans will correct themselves through chaos. I see examples of this through the flood of the days of Noah. Wars,plague, etc. There is enough resource, land water, and all the things we need on this earth if Humans would learn to be stewards of both. Unfortunately it make take disaster, war, plague, etc. if we do not learn to be stewards of our world and fellow brothers and sisters. I think it all comes down to the purpose and depiction of nudity. I am not and probably would not become a nudist. However I think nudist’s get a bad wrap. It is not about sex nor do most if any nudist’s participate for sexual reasons. In many countries and cultures nudity is commonplace and the sexual aspect is relatively non-existent. The industry of pornography is inherently evil in my opinion and serves no good purpose whatsoever. It is destructive in many cases to all involved. Even in Europe communal nude bathing is frequently practiced and frankly I see no problem with it as it is natural and comfortable. The ancient Olympics were done in the nude. I think it is all about intent, purpose, and action. Unfortunately many especially in the Western cultures turn it into something taboo and therefore sexual as opposed to natural and it’s a shame. I haven’t gotten a chance to check out all of these links posted here. I will say this however, there are many, many atrange things in this world that we cannot always explain. Archaeology has yet to uncover many regions of the earth and historians have always told us that Christopher and Amerigo did most of the exploring. We all know even in the mainstream historians know that America wasn’t unknown to much of the world, even long before the fifteenth century. It is perfectly plausible and in my opinion likely that the ancients were capable and did travel world wide. Look at some of the ruins in South America. The Olmec’s are a good and solid example of what looks to be a ‘mixed’ culture. Certainly by much of the stonework indicates that there were several races living together in thier society. Furthermore there are numerous submerged formations that could indicate lost civilizations all over the world.
I’m not going to form an opinion on this so-called Book of Janereck, but I don’t completely discount discoveries of ancient records outright just because they aren’t mainstream.
No I would not say wrong, but definately not right. I think the missionary program needs to operate more like a mainline Christian church with far more emphasis on service. I’m not saying that it’s not tough I think tougher really. I think the church should stop doing door to door misionary work. In this day and age it’s like selling vacuums, toothbrushes, or any other product. The best missionary work is done by example. It may take years and slow cultivation but the end result is happier converts who know what it all about to be LDS. I would say part time missionaries doing more service oriented callings and better selection of investigators (i.e. them contacting the church) people requesting info would much better serve the church.
I think something like a bi-annual stake or ward open house/carnival would be a better outreach as well as better community activites would better use the resources of the mission program.
All in all the biggest reason why I went inactive for several years was due to the fact that I did not want to go on a mission and felt extreme pressure followed by abandonment when i didn’t go. I never felt right about trying to convert someone and baptize them after a few short lessons. I honestly wanted to get married and earn my degree and start a family. I would have had no problem even being a part-time missionary.
The missionary program shouldn’t be 86’d but I think it needs a serious overhaul. Furthermore I think it should be entirely financed by the Church and well financed at that.
In addition I think a great oppotunity for the church would be to open private schools on a massive scale. It would be a HUGE opportunity to outreach the communities in which they were established as well. The schools themselves would be a ministry of cultivation and create stronger converts as well as strengthening the church membership already in existence.
Hmm maybe I’m off topic and this won’t be an answer to the big picture nature of the topic. However the way to get around alot of the budget shortfalls is to do things outside of the chuch. Example: Our scout troop was weak at best with little enthusiasm and poor equipment. The solution or resolution was a two of the ward’s bretheren who were better off members had a stockpile of equipment for camping etc. I certainly would not donate these items to the ward, niether did they, but have them on hand for the scouts to use. By doing this the brothers were able to ensure the equipment was there for use but able to keep a hand on misuse.
I think if more members did this they might see thier money go where it is needed more often. helping a struggling family with a Nintendo at Christmas will never be done by the Church but doing so might help that family have a better Christmas.
A helping hand here and there by those that are able might make the difference between dissaffection and loneliness by showing a private example of what good members can do for eachother.
Maybe we can’t always do this but it can help those that struggle. My family was very poor growing up and after my father had just spent months getting our car working, it was stolen and totalled. Our family was pretty inactive, long story short our visiting teachers learned of this and sold my father a used station wagon for a dollar. It was one of the examples of kindness shown by someone more fortunate. My father years later did the same thing and helped repair the vehicle for a family in our ward.
Even in the kingdom of God private “welfare” to our brothers and sisters can make a bigger difference than the Curch welfare program.
