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FWIW, I’m disturbed by the actions of your bishop. It’s one thing for an individual to chose to ignore the law in that situation. It’s an entirely different matter for someone in a position of authority to ask other people to put their safety at risk; especially knowing how many people strive to do exactly what their bishop says (as is evident in your facebook replies). There is no question he was in the wrong.

After considering it and reading all the responses to this post, I have to say that I’m glad you posted your reply on facebook. Personally, I wouldn’t have done it. That’s just not something I would do. However, I’m often glad there are people out there who do things that I wouldn’t do. I’m not saying we should start picking facebook fights. But I can see the possibility of someone in your ward feeling like they HAD to go to church because the bishop said so. And maybe your reply helped them see that “it’s not that simple”.

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I also feel like she needs some professional help. Of the things you mentioned that she does not want to do, (drive on the freeway, call people, etc.) are those things she used to be able to do? What I’m asking is, is she withdrawing? If she has always been somewhat shy and introverted, there’s really nothing wrong with that. But if that’s not really who she is and she seems to be losing ground – that’s a pretty clear sign to me. I would do what you can to get her some help, even if you have to be a little pushy. I could be wrong, but I would bet this is something more than just feeling unworthy at church. That’s a symptom, but there’s something deeper.

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I’m reminded of a lesson once in elder’s quorum years ago. I can’t remember exactly what the lesson was but it had something to do with marriage. A guy made a comment that I’ll never forget. As best as I can remember it was:

Quote:

I let my wife make quite a few decisions in our home, just so I don’t have to deal with them. But sometimes that starts to go to her head. When that happens I take her to the temple so she can remember how things really are.

I know some have mentioned ways that they are able to interpret the endowment so that it is more comfortable. The problem is that those interpretations are necessary. When taken at face value, there is no question that women play a secondary role in the endowment.

Having said that, a quick search for changes to the endowment will show that the church has made some very good progress. We’ve actually come a long way. Unfortunately, I think some (myself included) see the new films as a sign that we’re stuck where we are for several more years.

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New6, your story sounds very familiar. It’s a question I struggle with. My wife knows that I have questions, but she doesn’t know how deep they run. I am careful not to bring up concerns, although sometimes it’s unavoidable. When we do have discussions about faith, I try not to lie. I can usually give vague answers, and try to move on to other subjects. However sometimes, there’s just no way out. I either have to lie, or tell her the painful truth. In those cases I have chosen to spare her the pain. The consequence is that I add a burden to myself that is difficult to carry. I hate not being totally open with her. But it seems like my only option at this point.

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1. Obedience

2. Dealing with trials

3. Missionary work / rescue

4. Families

5. Temple work

Had you included high council meetings, 1 through 5 would have been home teaching.

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The first item in the article you referenced lists “Jesus as the Son of God”. I would have to say that’s a stretch since the most doctrinally significant changes to the BOM were the addition of “the Son of” in some verses where the relationship of Jesus to God was unclear. Some even argue that the additional words actually changed the meaning rather than adding clarification. I don’t have any issues with the church adding those words, as it seems that is the job of modern revelation – to clear up misunderstandings. But to say that the BOM itself cleared up that issue is a stretch IMO.

Things the BOM does shed light on:

1 – Baptism of infants

2 – Condemnation of polygamy (OK – with the exception of when it’s commanded)

This hymn is one that I’ve heard used by anti-Mormons (As I write that term, I have to laugh a bit because it doesn’t mean what it used to. Is there a better term?) against the church. They said, “why would a church that believes in continuing revelation sing a hymn that says there’s nothing more He can say”. I myself don’t see anything wrong with singing hymns that are not 100% doctrine. There are many more serious issues out there.

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I do feel like we are putting serious pressure on our members to get out and convert people. But I also don’t think we’re doing the missionaries any favors. In our community of ~1200-1400 people – half of which are LDS – we have two missionary companionships. So each companionship has roughly 300 prospective investigators. Based on my own guesses, I would break those people into these groups:

People unaware of the LDS church – 0%

People who hate the LDS church – 33%

People who just want the LDS church to leave them alone – 60%

That leaves roughly 21 people who might be willing to talk with the missionaries. Honestly that number is probably a little high. And after being hounded by the members / missionaries those people will move quickly to the “leave me alone” group. We haven’t had a convert baptism in our ward in at least a couple years.

Years ago I was the WML. I was TBM at the time, and we only had one companionship. But it was still one of the hardest callings I’ve ever had. I had a very difficult time trying to find things for them to do. I think we had one baptism during the two years I was WML. A young man that went inactive a few months after being baptized.

Now with the increase in the number of missionaries, I hear we may be getting another companionship. I can’t help but scratch my head and wonder who is making these decisions. The members are also getting tired of having them come by all the time. This is not a good time to be a missionary.

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Orson, I took a look at that video.

Orson wrote:

It is not a “fun” watch for anyone

Very true. In fact “painful” might be a good word for it.

Thanks all for the comments. From the varying nature of the comments I suspect, like everything else, this is my road to travel. I’ll have to deal with it the best I can.

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Old-Timer wrote:

Quote:

Not a word about it at church today.

No unexpected. I’m sure no talk was assigned or lesson was planned about the ban.

Actually, I would have been very surprised to hear about it in church. When the additional explanation was added to the official declaration, nothing was said about it. In fact I’ve shown it to a few people and they were surprised by it – one as recently as 3 weeks ago. It seems that TBMs in my area don’t frequent the lds newsroom. Consequently, they don’t actually know the church’s position on several matters.

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Quick report from my corner of the world – I actually heard about the disavowal on this site, and have heard nothing about it anywhere else. Not a word about it at church today.

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Thanks all. Roadrunner, I guess that’s how I consider this site. A place to “vent”, and not worry about repercussions, and it does help.

GodIsLove, I often try to think how I would feel if our roles were reversed. Thank you for your insight. I can only imagine how difficult this is for her. That’s why I’m very hesitant to be completely open with her. I’m afraid it would be too much. One time I tried to talk about tithing and what does “increase” really mean. It didn’t go as well as I had hoped. She is of the opinion that whatever calculation arrives at the highest amount is what should be paid. I don’t mean that in any disrespect. That’s not far from what I would have said years ago. And I applaud her faith. But I just don’t see it the same way anymore. All I was really able to do was throw in something like “I think it’s probably a little more complicated than that”.

It’s funny because I think the biggest concern we both have is “what if my spouse wants out of our family”. In reality that would be highly unlikely, but the fear is still there. We really have a great relationship outside of church matters. But the church has always been such a big part of our lives that it makes a large impact.

Hawkgrrl, you’ve identified the two conflicting courses I’m trying to navigate: having open communication, and putting her first. I’m afraid if I’m totally open it would cause her more pain.

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Roadrunner wrote:

“I don’t believe half of it”

That would definitely be crossing the line in my situation. It sounds like you have reached a more mature stage than where I’m at. I’m hoping that in time maybe things will get easier. What I’m afraid of is that there may be a battle before we reach it.

I agree that keeping things happy at home are the most important right now. That’s why I’ve been “playing the part”.

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I suppose it is the failure of our expectations that lead most of us to a board like this.

Consistency is what I wish for, but I don’t really expect it anymore.

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Very good points. I know my math example doesn’t fit into a situation of individuals and faith. My issue isn’t specific to Monroni’s promise, although that’s a big one (probably because it’s referenced so often in the church). There are many scriptures which give a similar promise. “Ask and ye shall receive”, “knock and it shall be opened”, “seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him”, and others.

There is a theme that, to me, says something like, “I’m your Father. I love you. I want you to know Me. If you will just try to find Me, I will make Myself known to you.”

I’m fine with the idea that we all get answers in our own way. Burning in the bosom, angelic visitation, hear a voice, lightning bolt, still small voice, or whatever. As long as it is recognizable to the receiver.

The thing I struggle with is seeking, reading, pondering, praying, fasting, etc. and not receiving anything I can identify as an answer. These days my prayers aren’t “Is the Book of Mormon true?”, I frequently find myself asking things like “Are you there?”, “Can you hear me?”.

Usually the best way for me to think of how Heavenly Father deals with us is to look at how I deal with my children. I know my kids are different. They respond to different things. I have to use different techniques to get through to them. So while my methods vary, there is always a method, there is always a response to the questions. I wouldn’t pick one child to talk to and ignore another.

So hearing spiritual experiences of others usually leads me to ask “What is wrong with me?”.

The only answer I can come up with is D&C 46:13-14.

Quote:

13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

Maybe I’m just one of those that has to believe on the words of others. It’s just not easy to do, and honestly sometimes it feels like I’m a fool for just believing what others say.

So in the spirit of the OP, if a persons testimony isn’t based off of spiritual experiences are there other valid options?

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I haven’t commented much on this board since introducing myself because DW doesn’t appreciate it. But this post really got my attention. This is really the core of my struggle. In the church and especially as missionaries we have a formula for receiving a witness.

1 – Read the book of Mormon

2 – Pray to know if it is true

3 – Receive a powerful feeling from the Holy Ghost

4 – Presto! You have a testimony!

But then we get into shady ground with “if ye shall ask with a sincere heart…”. What does that mean exactly? As a missionary I had a hard time when people didn’t get the answer I promised them. According to the formula they must not have been sincere. And yet I always knew that the formula didn’t really work for me either, and I felt like I had been sincere.

I’m a fan of Math. In math, 1 + 1 = 2. Always, no matter what. Even if you are not sincere. It’s the same for me and you and everyone else on the planet. The answer cannot be 2 for me, but maybe 2.5 for you. It just doesn’t work that way.

But jumping back to Moroni’s promise as well as to other spiritual experiences we often hear (including some mentioned here). I can’t reconcile the fact that I have never had such an experience. It drives me nuts!

I’m not saying that I don’t believe the stories I hear. I have heard them from too many people I respect to just cast them off. I believe there must be something to them. But then I’m still left wondering “why is there nothing for me?” I used to tell myself that eventually it would come. Just keep doing what you’re suppose to do and it will come. I guess my patience is fading.

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