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Back to chasity. In Exodus 22:16-17 we read that a man who lies with an unbetrothed virgin must pay the marriage present and marry her. In Deuteronomy 22: 28-29, we learn that a man who rapes an unbetrothed virgin must pay 50 shekels to her father and marry her. (A raped woman was considered unmarriageable: a forced marriage to her rapist was thought to be better than no marriage at all.) http://www.womenintheancientworld.com/women%20and%20the%20law%20in%20ancient%20israel.htm ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.womenintheancientworld.com/women%20and%20the%20law%20in%20ancient%20israel.htm As a few rabbi have told me before, in old testiment times if you had sex with a unmarried women you were considered married under Jewish law. Add that to the fact that it was the norm to get married shortly after puberty (12-14). You begin to understand why chasity is never once mentioned in the old testiment. Not once. That is why. You lie down with a women back then you were considered married under Jewish law, if she was betrothed it was considered adultery. What real opertunity was their to break a law that didn’t exist because of that back then? Especially being commonly married just after puberty and not 10-20 years after like what is common today.
While I am engaged I’m not married yet(obviously lol). I do remember FHE growing up all my life though. My parents were very big on it. Honestly I had my sincere likes and dislikes with it. I loved being with the family together learning new things. I didn’t like the monotony of it. We had it whether we liked it or were busy with school work or not. There was no flexiabity and often little creativity. I think working around those issues of inflexible structure and lack of creativity is the way I want to go. I had some truly inspiring FHE though. I never regret any time I had with the family together. I too don’t liked canned topics lol. Sometimes my father would just throw away the lesson and go with what works for the family at the moment. Followed by a family game together. Ultimately I think it best to each figure out our own families needs and likes and to enjoy a family moment together, rather then canned response lessons. If we have a creative side I would say it can and should be used here.
Sex, lies and genesis? lol ok I appreciate very much humor and the ability to laugh at ones self(cultural , religious beliefs and traditions). I think it is an important part of balancing life and seriousness. With regaurd to the story here is how I see it. I’m going to quote a off topic comment that will be tied with it from BY. Journal of discourses Volume 14:116 “God never made something out of nothing; it is not in the economy or law by which the worlds were, are, or will exist. There is an eternity before us, and it is full of matter; and if we but understand enough of the Lord and his ways, we would say that he took of this matter and organized this earth from it. How long it has been organized it is not for me to say, and I do not care anything about it. As for the Bible account of the creation we may say that the Lord gave it to Moses,
or rather Moses obtained the history and traditions of the fathers, and from these picked out what he considered necessary, and that account has been handed down from age to age, and we have got it, no matter whether it is correct or not,and whether the Lord found the earth empty and void, whether he made it out of nothing or out of the rude elements; or whether he made it in six days or in as many millions of years, is and will remain a matter of speculation in the minds of men unless he give revelation on the subject.” Obviously BY understood how the bible was formed to the point he says to the creation “no matter whether it is correct or not”. There are just certain stories hand down many, many generations before it was written down. So some don’t seem to make sense, “but we have it wheatear it is correct or not”.
That’s how I see it. Some things of importance to those at the time were passed down for what ever reason and maybe the point got lost sometimes in the process of the oral tradition of passing it down before it got written.
Cwald. This is the current dilemma with church. Seeing that certain talks have brought much harm to my family and some friends. It’s not unique to this church or even church’s. I do much better at it as do many Millennial Generation(I’m generation X). It helps that growing up in a age with constent advertisement that I learned to selectively filter thru it almost as a after thought. Which has helped me on my own to filter out all the bad talks and ideas in church. But it drops completely when someone I care about starts regurgitating it. I have Zero desire for hierarchy, I do not wish to be “the select few” . I have zero desire to command others. I just want to help people. Not rule over them. So this kind of talk disturbs me as well. Especially since given that analogy indicates to me animal abuse(that is how I see it) and that the end justifies the means(I don’t believe it). I didn’t receive that talk today. I received one by the SP who talked of a guy who spent his whole life trying to return a object of importance to his rightful owner. He spent his whole life night and day(quite his job and aren’t told how he made a living) went searching through city after city, country after country. Feeling completely exhausted he never gave up until near the end of his life he found the rightful owner before passing away from his long journey. I cringed inside to say the least after he said we all needed and had to be like this man to serve the church like unto this man and his journey, so that we could be found acceptable before god. Umm, I appreciate stories but this is too hardcore and unhealthy for me. I just filtered it out. Maybe it worked for a older generation, after reading history and seeing unhealthy teachings in the present I can’t not filter it out anymore because of the pain I watched it cause before. FYI just to help you laugh— during a Apple training seminar we were told we weren’t selling products. Noooo…. He told us “we were selling a better quality of life”. Lol. I filter out stu ff like that that I see as harmful.
Hi wayfarer. I had spoken with a few Orthdox Jews and roman Catholics about the source of the law of masterbation before and both refered me to–genesis 38: 8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. 9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
10 And the thing which he did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also.
While not a church doctrinal source it contains the only reference in the bible to what many mistake as a law against it.
It is believed by them that the “spilling of seed” was the law broken and punishable by death. If you take it out of context it would look that way. However I included the verse the verse before and after to give context.
The population was very small and the commandment to multiply earth was far more serious with just a handful of people on it least the human population die out. It is pretty clear on context that he was killed not for “spilling his seed” but for not obeying the commandment to multiply. Never the less there is a large section of Judeo-Christian population that interpret it as the spilling of seed that was the sin”wasting of seed” as seen as the reason the lord slew him. Thus masterbation “wasting seed” interpretation was born.
IM, this may seem ironic but we have to set a higher standered then those that hard line. I ry not not judge others but if I must I judge them by their own standards. The people that hard line with the appearance of evil or standards in absolutes are setting themselves and others up for failure. We(as a people) should try to rise above this. Hard lining and absolutes lead to intolerance which leads to suffering. That is why I won’t take a absolute position or encourage anyone to on this or other matters. I personally can’t be a part of intolerance or suffering. My position is just to do my best with love, and do my best to protect those from suffering around me. I’ll let god sort out the messy details of judgement inbetween. I appreciate your comments Ray. It’s primarily because of your comments as well as Brian’s and wayfarer and the harmony That exist here(and hopefully stays) that I finallyjoined here after months of perusing.
Given the context to which I know see I understand your comment a lot better. I
Agree that there is much yet to be done. It is a sensitive subject)especally to those who’s conditions are lifelong regauedless of treatment). Most of the knowledge that we have if the brain is because of computers and monitoring the electrical activity in it. Computers are very new in history and we have yet much to learn. I agree 100% that we need and should do more to understand it and the conditions that can and do exist(probably within us all in one form or another).
My post reflex my experince with how I saw people react to those with little understood “mental illnesses”.
It really is met for those that may not have experience to try to not be so conclusive or quick to judge those that are diagnosed or maybe even undiagnosed. Which leads me to something I try not to discuss but I think it is far more common then people know or are willing to admit. Which is why I choose to view history and church history as a complex series of events. People of various conditions can and have existed in spiritual and church positions. Which to me is to say it is not that simple to refer to someone in history as either completly legit or a outright fraud.
More interesting to me as I see it is that sometimes such a condition can lead to a understanding or enlightenment because it taps into a part of the brain that we don’t understand. Certain people seem to have specail gifts because of certain brain condition. They even have given us enlightenment sometimes for it. It’s not simple, but I hope people don’t judge them for it.
My sister has married someone I love who has Tourette. I don’t like the way he is talked about behind his back. They just don’t understand and that part is ok. What gets me is when I try to explain it to them they just shut off their mind don’t try to understand and walk away(not everyone). Likewise many teachings of the church like “were under attack from evil where, circle the wagons” and few other pulpit teachings are refered to by physiologist as “cognitive distortions”. Teachings that the world is going to hell in a hand basket when all the studies show the violent world crime to be down are also refered to as “cognitive distortions”. So even SOME LDS teachings can be seen a type of mental distortion. Which goes in line when seeing things like this. When in reality these type of things always existed in one form or another and even much more prevalently in previous “world periods”. They are still very sad regardless. Yes there are a few % of parents that ignore problems with their children, and another unknown percent that just ignore problems.
But while discussing this please try to remember that the percent of any type of “mentally ill” persons that can and do harm others is very small. There will always be people that go without help for various reasons, always. I wish it wasn’t so but when money is involved most people don’t have the hundreds of thousand to spend on this for their children. And insurance no longer covers most if not all mental illness.
Still these conditions have existed since nearly nature itself(they exist in animals and mammals as well) and they are far better treated and understood now then in previous periods of history. Just to help keep things in context.
Hmm, don’t really like talking about “mentally ill” but I feel the need to inject here by the spirit. Movies like “We need to talk about Kevin” are really bad and create a severe disconnect from reality and only serve to create stigma to those with mental conditions. These type of “metal ill” patient represents the 1 percent yet made to look like a problem in society. Good for movies to generate money but not reality. I have and haved worked with 100s of “mentally ill” people throughout nearly 20 years now. I used to live next to a “mentally ill” group home for 16 years. My experience with them is very very different from what most people think and perceive them as in part because of the media. From Schizophrenia to sever bi-polar to manic depressive to Tourette syndrome and many others. Save for a few people I have watched as they were mocked, ridiculed , scouned laughed at in private and out loud repeatedly. People generally don’t understand the disorder and feel the need to make judgements or act out based on things they don’t understand. We have had such people in my various wards who have various conditions and almost no one tries to befriend them. Non would volunteer to pick them up for events because they felt uncomfortable around them. I was by default the guy that the bishop talked to to pick them because everyone else he talked to turned him down on these matters. Certainly there are a few that are mentally ill that would do things like this and even just as many non mentally ill.
I love threads like this. Thanks Old-Timer. I appreciate everyone’s links and sharing on this. I am apprehensive to post my music since it differs so greatly from most Mormons because it is foreign language mostly. But here it goes, some songs that have been very inspirational to me. I am apologize if foreign language isn’t useful here but I know it has been to me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSETM41-DeA&feature=youtube_gdata_player ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSETM41-DeA&feature=youtube_gdata_player In excellent StayLds and Christian song at least from my view. Her voice and theme are soothing.
A song personal and inspirational to me and one of my favorite artist, also the ringtone song to my fiancé.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzIxMSMtNRI&feature=youtube_gdata_player ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzIxMSMtNRI&feature=youtube_gdata_player My stress reliever and meditation song –another of my favorite artist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR3uWOlpC2I&feature=youtube_gdata_player ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR3uWOlpC2I&feature=youtube_gdata_player the last 2 for now will be English songs who’s spirit and theme are central to my life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTozCB3cueA&feature=youtube_gdata_player http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEEpavnk7Uw&feature=youtube_gdata_player I hope you can enjoy these, I understand if you don’t. If you like them I have more.
My fiancé in Argentina actually messaged me about this today. I’ve wrestled with to. Reading history along with crime statistics shows a lot fewer homicides as humans have advanced. Violent crime is down but that doesn’t help kids understand. I work with Orthdox Jews. About 4 are holocaust survivors that I am close friends with. They tend to see it as free will and judgement as well as god reminding them to stay true to god. To be reminded they need him. My father used to say to me that god had need of them up in heaven to do important works for him. It worked for me as a child. Although I think life is more complicated then that. That is what I still loosely believe to keep me from being jaded at times because we really don’t know but it sounds as good as any to remain positive. And positive and loving is where I want to be. I would say in my experience your wards seem very large Canuck. Across California and Utah and 2 dozen other states I have attended the average at SM was 50-100 in a bout a a couple hundred wards I attended and visited. It was very common among those that 40-60% in attendance. Some higher, some lower. For my actual wards I belonged to I was a designated driver lol. That means to say that for one reason or another some couldn’t make it without transportation. Not all those that are not attending is because they don’t want to. Some don’t have support from their parents to drive them. Some live by themselves and don’t own transportation. Most “ex-mo” I have met just leave the church without notifying. Some notify and aren’t left alone, others just needed a visit and were going through hard times. I have about 16 friends who identify themselves as ex-mo but haven’t notified the church. Some are Jewish or catholic or me,bears of other faiths, some choose not to belong to any faith anymore. It’s complicated. Then there is the many pastors I have met you “claim” to have been Mormon but found “the true way(truth)”. I was(am) skeptical since so many had this story. Of the wards I went to 50% paid a full tith. This is all my experience across the USA. My fience who lives in Buenos Aires has a very different story of a lot less active there. When it gets cold the attendance can drop to almost nothing she says. Many single mothers would love to come on many Sunday’s but are forced to stay home to deal with children or other matters. Her ward that I attended was mostly female, many single mothers. But they were an amazing and very nice bunch of people. I am, was TBM in whatever that means. I don’t know anymore and honestly I really don’t like putting people into boxes so I figured why put myself into a box. I know what I know, believe what I believe and seek the truth in all things. So much so that even after I find truth I am still open to more truth in things that can be proven even if it was “case settled” before. I see darkly so I’m always open to new evidence or truth where it can be found.
There is a lot of evidence for and against the church. With almost everything lack fully conclusive evidence.
This is where faith comes in. I decided to put my faith in any teaching that produces good works.
And accept the truth I already know and except my experinces and not try to fight it in my mind.
For me personally this mans testimony touched me so much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0epOwqyuBk&feature=youtube_gdata_player ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0epOwqyuBk&feature=youtube_gdata_player I don’t know him and never met him but I wish I did.
His answers are sincere and genuine and he doesn’t try to fight what he learned as a scientist.
I wish the ” my mame is____ and I’m a Mormon videos were a lot more like this instead of very PR like.
With regaurd to church history and SE teachings, I worked it out by saying to myself I honestly don’t know.
I may thought I knew but in reality I don’t and that’s what faith is for.
I accept the fact I don’t know, and all the little details about what we believe really don’t actually matter to me.
It’s the people like William Bradshaw that make me proud(pleased) to be a Mormon and stake my claim to the tribe.
What god looks like, where we reside in the afterlife, Wow, what we wear etc. is all semantics to me when all I really want to do is “love god with all my heart might mind and streanght and love thy fellow neighbor as myself.
I’ll talk about and try to learn everyting I can. But at the end of the day it doesn’t matter to me. Judy those things.
Life gets incredibly complacated and I just try to keep it simple.
silent= spent and the iPhone autocorrect lol. Anyways I have spent my life in serving others both inside and outside the church and wait for the day the church encourages less meetings and more action. Adding more meetings and responsibilites isn’t going to work.
We have to be fluid in our life and less rigid with structure. We need some structure but we have to learn to be more fluid with situations. Life is unpredictable, people’s needs around us form and change at any moment. Being more fluid and flexible with being in the service of god because we are in the service of our fellow man(women).
Example* well I was in the process of going to another meeting but my neighbor or situation around me needs help,support, love at the moment and that would be more beneficial to spend my time in*
We can’t set a ridged structure and only adhere to it or we will lose so many opertunites to serve others.
