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When I was at BYU, took my Bio 110 I can not remember the name of my professor. He was a fascinating guy would talk about the genetic research he was doing in South America. One day he started his lecture by reading a statement from the first presidency that basically said we do not take a possession on evolution. He than bore his testimony, and said I am here to tell you that evolution is a fact. He then gave an example of a new species of plant that had evolved in the last ten years in UT. I was sitting next to a young man who was part of my study group. After class he said I can not accept this. Mcconkie said evolution was one of the great heresies. He said I can accept evolution within a species but not form one species to another. I did not understand how some people just look evidence in the face and refuse to see a thing. One of the members of my Elders quorum who is an engineer, I once asked is it just me I get really frustrated at the whole debate between creationism and evolution. He said “I think it is like seeing kindergarteners arguing about calculus.” I see this as extremely appropriate. How can anyone see Geniuses as a detailed record, or that we have anything but a rudimentary understanding when looking at the focal record?
Euhemerus, Quote:“Hmmm, yes and no. It may be that the opinion of voters in Utah went from 70% opposed to 70% in favor after a statement by the church, but let me ask – did this change the culture for the thousands of homosexual church members in Utah? I suspect not, otherwise you wouldn’t be having an issue with this. Mormons in Utah will make the most conservative adjustments based on what the leaders say (makes sense given the culture in Utah). Mormon culture is much much slower to change.”
I completely agree. This small change culture is very specific to the the polls in the news papers. The Utah legislature is in the same spot they were last year and that 70% is not telling their Law makers to change the law. I think the specific effect on Mormon culture of supporting the SLC’s ordnance was very small pretty specific. When reading comments made by Elder Holland after the support, and things written by Elder Oaks before the support I think we can see some of the brethren supported this change because they want change and others think the church needs to make some concessions to the left to slow or to continue the work to try and stop the culture change in this area. I think all are doing what they believe are right. My point here is that we as members have a much bigger ability to affect our culture and our leadership than we typically think. I think that the fact that we actually have affect helps to buttress the argument that we have a responsibility to do so. I now want to skip to the end of your post:
Quote:“I’m starting to get a little confused here. Do you just have an axe to grind with the way leaders address the topic of homosexuality? Are you just opining, but aren’t really upset about it? Are you interested in your own personal resolution to these issues? Do you want to make Mormonism your own, or do you want to change the church? I’m not criticizing, just trying to understand where you’re at.”
These are great questions. I guess in some ways all of the above. I am passionate about this. If this is your definition about an axe to grind than yes. If the definition is only wanting to complain than no. Specifically I do think this is the best example to make my point, and I do believe the things I am saying are true, and I do care about them, I am not angry and sorry if I am coming across angrily. I believe part of my process of embracing Mormonism is figuring out what my responsibility for change lies and embracing that responsibility. If I am going to claim Mormonism as my church and my culture than I believe I have responsibility in the process. As I embrace Americanism I work to change the things that I believe are wrong some times that looks a lot like complaining. It does not mean standing ideally by and pretending our country is perfect. The same is true if I choose to be in a marriage, part of a family, work at a company, or member of a club.
Quote:“Whoa, hold on a sec. No need to justify to me what the Bible says. I know what’s in there, and I’m on your side here. I’m just trying to understand things from their perspective. Why are Mormons against homosexuality? I think the reasons are many, but there is no shortage of people who believe the Bible preaches against it. The point isn’t the bible. The point of my comment was that some people will perceive a relaxation or more friendly attitude towards homosexuals as a lowering of standards or otherwise immoral. I know it’s absurd, but I bet you could probably name a few who might even fall into that category.”
Excellent point, church members do believe this. Many also believe the proclamation is not only scripture, but says something specific about homosexuality. I do believe these are challenges. I do believe there is education to do, but there was in 1979, as well. Many people believed that Blacks and the priesthood was scriptural as well. Some still do; I have many say blacks have the priesthood now because it is the fullness of time. Why would this not work for embracing homosexual members or changing policy on behavior? People do a lot of mental gymnastics to justify beliefs. In fact, in my opinion, they need to do this now to believe that our policies are justified. But that could me my mental gymnastics.
Thanks,
Gail
Euhemerus, Thank you for the thoughtful response.
“Great questions. The thing is, the answers are simple…and complex (well, as I see it anyway). The answer to this question is – we can’t. Of course they have power to affect the loving behavior in our wards. Of course they could affirm the homosexual lifestyle and possibly prevent many suicides. Of course they could praise intellectuals instead of branding them as prideful or worldly etc.”
I believe there are plenty of things the brethren could do without affirming the homosexual lifestyle or changing their policy on homosexual behavior. If they simply put as much efforts into teaching our local wards what the first presidency has said on the subject of homosexuality in the last 15 years would do a mass amount. It they directly pointed out how these statement are in direct opposition with statements from the 70’s and before, heck even from the 80’s. This would go even further. There statements have completely changed from saying that the origin of homosexuality is personal iniquity to directly saying that they do not know what causes homosexuality. If they took one step further and said that homosexuality can not be changed and we should stop attempting to do so that would go a million miles. If they had a letter in every ward asking members to embrace their homosexual brothers and sister that live in each unit of the church and say to the homosexual member we will embrace you if you choose share with your word members your orientation this would come close to eradicating the problem completely. These are all relatively simple things they could do without changing any doctrine. I must admit that in my opinion even reversing there policy on homosexual behavior would not affect anything Don is calling official doctrine in his paper.
“Oh man, what a loaded question. Here’s some questions I ask myself when contemplating the answer:
1. what does it mean to “work for change”? Should I protest? Should I follow Gandhi and use passive resistance? Should I speak out in church regardless of the consequences?
2. what do I think the leaders should do, and what are the associated consequences to themselves, the organization, and the millions of followers who clearly rely heavily (too heavily admittedly) upon them? Should the leaders who care more for “the one” speak out, possibly contradicting the others and break the unified front they manifest? Would that be okay to do, or would thousands of Saints sense discord and leave? Should they make a proclamation recanting their previous position on a particular subject and admit they were wrong? Would this destroy the faith of thousands (which may be an insignificant issue if you are disaffected, but if you believe that this is the only path to exaltation, then pushing someone out of the church would weigh heavily upon your mind I bet)? Would this undermine supposed Biblical injunctions and be seen as “lowering standards”? Is the mantle equally important as people? I think it might be easy to say no, but think about how important the prophetic mantle is in our church. Keep in mind we have fought (literally killed and used force) to (ostensibly) retain our rights and prophetic mantle in this church in the past.”
Yes, these are all questions I have asked myself and do ask myself. Some I have answered, some I have not. Likely everyone who has asked these questions have and will come up with different answers.
I have gone to prop 8 protests and held up a sign with the 11th article of faith. I am not sure what following Gandhi really looks like in this context. Maybe someone else does. I sit with my mouth shut in church. I do speak with my friends, family, my bishop, send letters to the brethren, and blog heavily on LDS blogs. It seems I could do more, but I do not know what.
What do I think leaders should do? I hope and believe there is a lot of discussion behind close doors. I believe some of the twelve likely see things as liberally as I. I hope as we as members are willing to share our views and our pain some may change there mind, and maybe some will disagree louder behind closed doors. This all may be completely untrue. They all may be as one behind close doors. I certainly hope not. I believe if they spoke out more differently than they do it would change church culture and procedure forever or result in an excommunication. If you read and watch carefully there are differences in what the GA’s say. And I believe by looking at what some choose not to say you can see some of what they really believe.
Recanting? They have come out with reversals on more than one occasion, never seen by the faithful as recanting, and the general membership seem to have a very short memory about what came before.
Besides the membership has the ability to turn on a dime. Last year after the failure of Common Ground in Utah, an attempt by liberal law makers to put into law in Utah what laws leaders of the church said they did not oppose during prop 8, papers all over the state polled the Utah citizenry on whether homosexuals should have housing and employment protection. All reported results in the neighborhood of 70% apposed. After the Church read a statement this fall in Salt Lake City counsel meeting supporting a city ordinance protecting LGBT individuals from housing and employment discrimination papers all over the state again polled the citizenry. Almost across the board they reported about 70% in favor. Go figure. I believe whatever the church leaders say as a unit the Church will on a whole adjust to.
As far as a Biblical injunction the only two sources that condemn homosexual behavior the leaders of the church already significantly contradict.
1. Leviticus, outside of the condemnation of homosexuality the only thing the church not treat a remnant from an earlier time is the few times it quotes one of the ten commandments. All the other abominations are things like selfish and pork.
2. Paul, this is the man who claims that you can serve God better if you remain unmarried and the only reason to marry is if you cannot control your sexual impulses. These things are directly in contradiction to Mormon doctrine and practice, why not throw the condemnation of homosexuality in the same pit of scriptures we never read in a Sunday School lesson?
You have gotten some great advice here. I would like to add a few things. Love her enough to want her to have all the info she needs about you to make a wise decision about marriage.
I think it may be easy to slip into trying to convince her of what you believe. Remember if you are right for each other you will have a life time to talk about these subjects – whatever she believes. Don’t defend your beliefs; validate the beliefs she shares with you and work to understand her feelings about what you are sharing. You have had a long time to take in the changes with in yourself. Give her the time and understanding to adjust to her new understanding of you.
If you are clear and loving up front she may be shocked and take time, but I think she will be more likely to weigh it out fairly and come back to you. If you give it to her piecemeal she could become resentful and leave you later. If you get it out now it is likely if she decides to stay with you it will be for good.
Ray, Thanks for the suggestion. Now that I have spent sometime on this in the archives, maybe I should address my specific example directly in a post. Thank you.
Euhemerus,
Thanks for seeing beyond my lack of clarity. The two things I specifically am asking are: when we see the simply amazing power of the Church leadership has in many specific instances, how can we truly believe they have no power to affect the specific loving behavior in our wards? And when we as members of this culture see the fundamentals of this culture hurting certain individuals do we not have a responsibility to work for change? Particularly when we are talking about people dying, literally or figuratively.
emele, I know this is long after your entry so much has likely changed, and I am not sure you will see this.
I was married to a gay woman for 16 and half years. I still love her and we are good friends live close and work together as parents and friends. Our kids are doing great, 4 of them. I know some of your struggle and pain.
I highly recommend Affirmation for him and for you. One of the things that it is really difficult for a spouse of a gay person in the church is finding support for you. Your husband needs support, but you really do to. There are reasons that your husband is not ready to share his orientation openly, but the term in the closet really feels like you are in the closet. You are in the closet to and it is painful to keep secretes. You need to find a place where you can be totally honest about who you are and the real beauty of your marriage. For me it was very painful to go to church and pretend that my marriage was the same as all others. I believe my relationship with my spouse was always a very beautiful thing and still is, but to always be secretive about the reality of that beauty of it makes it feel like something to be ashamed of.
You may find North Star as a positive place, I did not. I believe the biggest help to our relationship and true progress for my wife’s self-esteem was gaining the understanding and embracing the fact that God created her Gay and that it was not a malignancy or a mistake. At North Star they are loving, well meaning people, but they embrace the idea that homosexuals will be cured and need to be cured. There is no president for this. I have never met a gay person that holds this philosophy that does not struggle with self hatred. When someone in the marriage is struggling with self hatred it makes the challenges of marriage very difficult, maybe almost impossible.
I highly recommend the book “No More Goodbyes” by Carolyn Pierson. I must admit that I cried all the way throw, but it was very up lifting and helped me resolved many feelings.
I believe your husband’s passed abuse is real and important to deal with, but I think he will likely deal with it more effectively if he deals with it in and of its self. Because his sexual orientation is something that really is part of who he is. Yes he as well as we heterosexuals have a choice in our sexual behavior, but we do not have a choice in our orientation, and it has profound negative psychological effects to pretend we do. This is the root of the self hatred, when we insist we can change the parts of our selves that are chore characteristics. This is how Elder Wickman describes homosexuality and it is very appropriate. I believe God wants us to love what he has created in us. Please, continue to share here and find other places to share. I found on Affirmation an e-mail group called Family Fellowship, it literally saved my life.
Quote:“The Church” CAN’T make that happen.I guess I am not this highly evolved. I have a hard time swallowing this. For many years I have sat in church and heard things that sound very hateful said towards homosexuals over the pulpit or in classes. Most of what is said is in direct opposition with what the brethren are currently saying. I have always heard that church leaders cannot control what the membership do and do not say. I believed it for a long time. Until prop 8 we now see the real ability the Church has to direct the membership. So the leaders of the Church has the ability mobilize it’s members to donate millions to take away a segment of the population of California’s civil rights, but they have no control over how wards isolate homosexual members? Some how I struggle with this logic.
Quote:I stopped requiring “The Church” to change long ago”
Again I guess I am not this evolved. When I see that three times the gay men of the church commit suicide as straight men I wonder how to change the culture of the church. I really do not think the church even needs to change it’s stand on homosexual behavior to make a difference in how painful it is to be a homosexual member, but the church has many policies that make the Church a painful place for homosexual members. The Church asks homosexual members to only share their orientation to a close family member and their bishop as if the orientation was a serious sin. They also ask us to refer to homosexuality as same sex attraction or same gender attraction, implying pathology. I believe one of the reasons why members who are mostly very loving people can say such hateful things about homosexuals is that because they do not know that there are homosexual members in every unit of the church, also with terms like same sex attraction we put the issue farther away form them. They have no idea that they are speaking to homosexuals right to their face. They are not even talking about real people they are talking about some mass hoard working to destroy the family somewhere in Babylon. There is also an assumption in the culture that their orientation is something that they must be healed from in order to go to heaven. How miserable is it seeing that no matter how hard you try your basic sexual desire does not change.
I am a member of this culture that is fundamentally broken in a way that makes it possible that a very high percentage of my homosexual brothers and sisters not only are living in misery, but actually commit suicide. Don’t I have a responsibility to stand up, speak out, and do what ever I can to change this culture? If we look through out history prophets believed in slavery, bigotry, and misogyny, and if it was not for people within the culture willing at personal risk to do what ever they could to change these wrong cultural ideas they would still be culturally accepted?
Thanks for the discussion Euhemerus and Ray. I do love the church, and I know I am Mormom in the deepest part of who I am. I am really trying to figure out how embracing that part of who I am works. You both are a great source of input. Ray, Quote:“However, within Mormonism it’s interwoven into the fabric of how we view (or should view) all who have lived throughout history in a way that is different than any other Christian religion – and that’s important to me.”
I am not sure I fully understand this statement. I agree that it is at the center of our faith and our world view. Are you saying this and that this is different than every other faith? I would disagree with this.
I can completely can relate with the Mormon people being my people. This is why I am asking these questions.
Over the last few years I have felt like a freak among my people.
Ray, This is a good answer. I believe this is true religion. Why is the type of service you are talking about more possible at the Mormon church than anywhere else? I strive for this everywhere I go: at work, with my friends, when I serve in the community, even the people I know that work at the library or the gas stations I frequent. I have seen many great examples of this serve in our church, but I have seen just as much out of it even from people that are not apart of any church.
Euhemerus, This all makes since, but I still do not see how church attendance is a benifit. If spiritual uplift comes from other sources, and I am not finding that when I attend, you can serve in or out of the church whether you go on Sunday or not. What do you get out of church attendance? When I have time I enjoy going to see my ward family, but I never stay for the whole block it feels so counter productive. I attended for a long time after I decided that It could be on my terms, but finally it has started feeling that I can do better things with my time. I guess it would be nice for my parents if I could tell them I was active again, but how does it help spiritually when they interpret every thing in such a narrow way that it feels untrue?
Thanks to everyone for all the good perspective. A week ago I signed up on two lds dating sites. Both advertized sign up for free. Well I get all signed up and it turns out in order to message anyone or to receive any messages you need to pay an unspecified amount. Thinking about needing to pay to communicate with people the closest of whom are nearly an hour away I am not sure I am ready to dedicate that much time. I work at least 65 hours a week and have my kids two nights during the week and Saturday and Saturday night. I also am thinking what parent of these people are looking for a traditional LDS man. I am just making excuses to avoid taking any serious steps.
