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I laughed about your baptism problems (other than grandpa, which brought a human condition sadly to mind). In my mission, for seven months, we baptized in a cattle watering trough. Thin ice to be broken usually, then stand securely on a very slippery green bottom to dunk, knowing that you can’t turn a thundering herd of cows back when they decide to come drink. Also, where to change wet clothes in a cow pasture? We buried the dead in the same cow pasture, 19 year old boys preparing the dead, digging the graves, holding a graveside service, lowing the wooden box, while comforting all to often, crying parents who had lost their baby. What I’m getting at, is you do what you have to do. Our lives get changed in the twinkling of a eye, especially through missions (though I write of conditions half a century ago). Would I still have gone if I knew before hand, of course. Service is what ‘grew’ us to manhood. I hope my grandsons are allowed to help the living. To be in their service, is to be in the service of…. Well, you all know the quote.
jmb275 wrote:Well said Scott. Good to have you among us!
Amen to “Well said Scott. It is good to have you among us.” I recognize a kindred spirit in your path upward. It is nice having company.
I also see those serious cracks and am concerned. By myself, I am powerless to attempt any repair. Indeed, such effort would be suspect. To raise an army, would be to invite real disaster. Thus I continue on the course I have for half a decade. You will always get a warm welcome and a smile, when we meet inside the burlap walls (ha). I share those things I can testify of, I take from the banquet those items I can enjoy and swallow. The church has survived many trials in its short history. It is changing. The question is, is it changing quickly enough? Time will tell. Thanks Ray for agreeing with my last comment. I’m going to give a little testimony (I hope that’s OK – I’m still new around here). What do I love about the LDS church. Service, I love that it taught me the value of service. Education, I love that it taught me the value of getting a higher education. My sweet humble parents (Native American mom) did not value education, having known only hard work. I love that the church brought me Jesus. He is center to who I am. I also love the church for helping me meet my ex-wife (ha). She was the bride of my youth and I have children & grandchildren who bless my life. There, that’s about it and it’s enough. “I add no more, God bless you all.” Oh, thanks Brother Joe for that interesting sermon, especially “I don’t blame anyone for not believing me…” King Follett Funeral Sermon, Nauvoo, April 1844.
On another thread today John Dehlin suggested that we will see within 5/10 years much more acceptance for the liberal’ites in the church. I hope so. I’m at church every week, but I also suffer CogDis as I sit and listen. I could well be in the last decade of my life, I’ve served in the church for fifty years. For those of you who are younger, I offer a challenge. Regardless of your age, if you continue in the Gospel net, remember (note in your wallet, purse?) in 2019, to look back at today, and ask yourself if conditions have really changed. If they have, rejoice! If they have not, consider what enduring to the end brings to your table. “I add no more, God bless you all…” the King Follett(?) address. I like this thread and agree with virtually all that has been said here. Especially do I find hope in John’s assessment that 5/10 years will make the difference, that a host of us will find acceptance and tolerance in our liberal views of the Restoration. Here’s my problem. I’m almost seventy years old. My timeline means that my beloved grandchildren are reaching adulthood. For TBM’s that means missions and marriages. I just (for the first time) missed the temple wedding for an offspring, my oldest grandson. I know it was my choice. But I also know that in the next decade, should I live so long (dad made 95 years), I will miss many more temple weddings. I feel I must answer temple recommends questions with honesty. Perhaps I’m foolish. The truth is, I will be the loser in this decade. If I don’t live through it, I will go to my grave wondering if openness will really come to liberals in the church. I do believe in the future, less active parents or non-parents will join their children in the temple on their special days. But that is my vision, and I’m not a prophet. I have twelve grandkids, three at BYU currently (dating naturally). I feel like my golden years will lose tender moments. It both angers and saddens me. Thank you Ray for showing a willingness to point out/discuss. There certainly are racists in the Church. I find an undercurrent of ‘snugness’ toward several ethnic cultures. I’m speechless at times. I say this as a citizen of the Muscogee Creek nation, on the board of our California organization. I am a novice here at STAYLDS. I should never have assumed that folks here would not care to rehear the plea of Mr. King in one of our worst moments in Los Angeles history. Rodney King has gotten into other difficulties, but at the moment it was needed, he rose to remind us of our kinship, one with another. As a member of a tribe who were nearly destroyed (the Natchez), but who found safety and adoption by neighboring Muscogee Creeks, I have tender feelings toward all peoples. There was a story printed in the Improvement Era (I know, I’m old!) many years ago. I have never forgotten it. A grandson has gone to see his aging, sick, grandfather. They have had a mellow discussion with lots of love shown and he prepares to leave. As the last moment, his grandfather pauses, makes eye contact and asks pleadingly, “Jason, is the Church still true?” I would have answered that question much differently years ago. Today, I would rush to testify of my own love for Christ and the promises all Christians (LDS included) find in the Grace that so freely HE offers us. I struggle to stay LDS. I hope for change in the church. And more importantly, I have become that grandfather from decades ago. I may phase it a little differently, but I ask my grandchildren about their beliefs all the time. It’s what grandfather’s do.
George means “farmer” in the original Celtic. Not to earth shaking (well, maybe it is earth shaking, hoeing, weeding…, but I digress). I like the handle, but the same mantle was not bestowed to my three sons. It had to do with a certain little ‘chime’ in my childhood… My last name has to do with our English occupation, “Windinghouse” was your textile mill, where clothes were woven (or “winded” – ancient form). Ray, my apologies for my reference to blacks. It had something to do with recent comments in my ward. It has NOTHING to do with this website. I find goodness here, and I mean that in the best possible way. I learn from everyone and appreciate their take. Interesting take Valoil. I hope you understand that I do pray for Republican presidents also. I don’t bring politics into the sanctuary and am sadden when they are preached from the pulpit. I have left the room on occasion. The ‘storm’ is my personal storm. I don’t wish to be driven out into the rain. I hope always, that Iron Rods and Liahonas can find places in the church, shouldn’t they be able to? As for the statement, “I didn’t leave the church….” I was told it about 1960 from a 90 year old relative. His one legged father had settled with the Saints (under direction of President Young), in San Bernardino, Cali. After building their home and planting their potatoes, they were told to return immediately to Utah (Johnson’s Army). Enoch Parrish exercised his agency and said NO. The church largely left and no branch was authorized. It was sixty years before missionaries came again (though the Reorganites came in forty). Young people married their neighbors in Protestant churches, so to re-establish Mormonism was difficult. There is a object lesson there somewhere…
I appreciate that we can present different views in this forum. Maybe ‘liberals’ will be heard. By the way, going backward, my voting record: Obama, Bush, Bush, Mondale, Nixon, Goldwater, couple of others, all Republicans, oh yea, Stevenson (the hole in the shoe guy). Mvto! (Creek for thanks for listening).
“but you can’t offer a seat to the Mormons I guess… Not a single one has any spark of the divine within them?” I think perhaps the fact that I have taken a seat among the Saints for over half a century says something about my love & acceptance of Mormons. What I was responding to was the statement she feared raising her children in such a controlling environment might cause her much pain further along the path. My response was simply, if you’re seriously concerned, then leave, and it might be wise to leave quickly. There is an old saying, “Give me a child until their five and I will give you a Catholic all of their life.” The same might be said of Mormons. I still attend the LDS church. I have good friends and my children find their faith community within (except the gay son).
My reference to my own heritage is simply to acknowledge religious diversity is good. We do learn tolerance for other points of view. The idea of One True Church seems to fade. The idea of the fatherhood of God and brotherhood of Man expands. I have known spiritual giants in the church. I have also known Nazi-Mormons. The trick is loving them both unconditionally and I do work hard at it. Shalom.
Toddlers are one thing, but teenagers are repeated told to clasp the Iron Rod. I’ve even noted with my beautiful five year grand daughter, comments at the table that could only come from Sunday School, Primary, etc. I have no problem with her developing a love for Jesus and his teachings, but I also note the critical dismissal of people/things who are different than the LDS vision. Her world is being drawn up much more narrowly than mine was. With a Methodist Dad, a Lutheran Mom, a Catholic brother and wonderful Buddhist neighbors who lived next door, my world was universal in acceptance and unitarian in seeing God in different ways. If you need to leave, do it quickly. Our lives get changed in the twinkling of an eye, opportunities are lost… I’m a convert, started attending at 17, joined at 18, did the mission thing at 20. Although my family never followed me, I now have five children and twelve grandchildren in the church (though two don’t believe anymore). The problem with being a convert who leaves, you have a strong guilt for having taught/introduced a fairy-tale amongst your offspring. You want to cry out, “I screwed up, I didn’t do my homework!” And as a old man, you have already figured out that no one pays any attention to old people anyway. It sucks. Really. Welcome quietblue, There is a tendency in our culture to evaluate things on a scale, you know, the 1 to 10 thing. Usually 1 is rotten, while 10 rocks! I’ve been in the church for fifty years. I watched it carefully, interfaced with leadership, served a mission, saw the influence it has on my kids and grandchildren, and sought a personal relationship with Jesus when things got really difficult. I’d like to share a few stats with you:
Institutional Church (overall) – 6, ward leadership – 5, mission – 4, the influence with my kids & grandkids – 6, My walk with Christ – 10+
You will note that aside from my relationship with Jesus, nothing is especially high on the scale. And that is because Jesus is the only perfect man who ever lived. I have studied his teachings. I try to bring them into my life and HE alone has got me through the refiner’s fire. The people are the church. Are the people you know flawed? Yea right, well the church is flawed too, basically a Rough Stone Rolling. I would suggest you look inside yourself for the spirituality and forgiveness you seek. I have good self esteem now (didn’t always have) and I find people like me because I like myself. Try it with your ward leaders, you will be surprised. God loves you quietblue.
