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Oddly enough, I have always understand Bruce in Montana’s position. As I read in church the life stories of Brigham Young, John Taylor, Woodruff, Snow, etc., I was OK with polygamy. It seems much more honest/positive/doable when it was being openly declared by the church. I guess I thought that everyone, husbands and wives, knew what they were getting into accepting the principle, that agenda was practiced. However in recent years as excellent books have detailed Joseph Smith’s own path in polygamy, I have been shocked. Both by his coverup to Emma, and to the General Church. It has darkened the practice in my mind, by added a demand for immediate acceptance and the use of family and church leaders to prod the young women into marriages which sent them back to their parents home a few hours later, hence to be visited only in the dark of night. I don’t find Christian teachings/love in the equation. It is embarrassing to me today. I can only imagine what Emma must have thought and been put through. If I were to meet Joe on the street today, I could but utter, “What were you thinking?”
Hi Anna, George here. I’ve been single more than married too. Sealed in the temple at 22, divorced at 47, now 68. I have five children and twelve grandkids. They keep me young. All are TBMs other than one son (gay) and one married son currently researching the shaky foundations of our church. I attend mostly Sacrament (to pass the grand babies along), but don’t feel comfortable in the institutional church. Like a old relative once said, “The church left me, I didn’t leave it.” I miss the road shows, the dinners, the dance festivals. I miss when you were at the ward building most nights of the week. The church is focused on building chapels in far-off lands now. We seem to be mostly a “Sunday go to meeting church.” There is little growth in America. I wonderful if we are witnessing a major downsizing of our church?
Welcome here, in this community. I enjoy the threads. Shalom.
Ophelia, I am a male version of your story. Just one difference, I also have two gay brothers. Proposition 8 ruined the church for me. I experienced “So you don’t support the prophet?”, had notes left on my truck and bumper stickers torn off of it. I was told by a high church official that the church would NEVER retreat from the new position they had taken on Prop 8, that I might just as well get over it. Well, I did, I got over the LDS church. I was baptized into Jesus Christ, He is my Rock. My brothers and gay son are blood and in the words of Wyatt Erp’s daddy (OK Corral/Wyatt Erp), “blood’s blood and not much else matters.” I’m a cafeteria Mormon now, and I seem to be putting more and more offerings back on the table, I guess I’m not very hungry anymore… That can only change if the church acknowledges and reaches
out as our Savior does.
When temple work was first introduced by Joseph and vicarious baptisms were done in Mississippi River, you could only offer up the names of those who you personally knew, to have had a good character and were worthy of having the gift administered. I cannot, in my mind, justify the giving of all vicarious ordinances (baptisms, endowments, sealing to spouse, etc.,) to the likes of Hitler. It’s just me. What I suggest (and probably poorly written), is that for myself, I find serving the living more appropriate. It has to do with the scripture “Let the dead bury the dead..” If I am wrong, I will await His pleasure, even as my tears wash his feet. I find hope always in his Grace and the principle of forgiveness. As I consider this subject, I am aware of evil plotting people who have had their vicarious temple work done. People who none of us would ever desire to dwell near in the eternities; pedophiles, mass murderers, etc. So how do I reconcile this massive temple work effort we are in the midst of? Actually I cannot. I do not personally submit names to LDS temples. Instead, I work to uplift and sustain and teach love effulgent among human beings. It works for me. I often fail, but it is in the effort the growth comes. When will the text, Christ’s Ideals for Living, be used by the corporate church again? I loved it a half century ago (O.C. Tanner was the author). His daughter is the head of the Episcopal Church in Utah today. Shalom. After my oldest son came home from his mission, he requested that I partially fund his entry to a unique college. St. Johns in Santa Fe and Annapolis, Md., offers a degree involving the study of the two hundred greatest books ever written, from Socrates to the Bible. It is one of the most liberal colleges in America. Later, he came to us and basically came-out. He told of demeaning interviews with LDS leadership and threats being directed at him. He was both suicidal and over weight. After his revealment, he took up rugby and lost 100 pounds. He is lean and mean today. He has found true friendships and acceptance in his community. His life is filled with writing, making rugby video documentaries and a career in environmental & green awareness. He is amazing. We love him unconditionally, and are so thankful he is with us and not removed from our sight forever, because of religious guilt. I missed my first temple wedding (grandson) this past month. I was fine with it. I sat in the waiting room with his best man, etc., non-members from his hockey team. I don’t think anyone noticed or cared. Grandfather’s tend to be in the background as it were. My vision is that one day the Angel Moroni will be quietly taken down from its perch and the holy temple will become a place of meditation, reflection, prayer and study. Weddings of course, attended by all invited loved ones, members and non-members, Jew and Gentile….. Shalom. We all miss it, and that is why some of us become cultural Mormons. When I read the title I thought about the “bother “part. If we separate, walk away from our heritage, do we really bother to find another faith community? How easy it is to build new friendships or help our children acclimate. Hitler worked for a Jewish family as a young man and ended up trying to destroy that religion from the earth. Many who leave the church probably stay away from organized religion. I guess the answer to the question lies with the individual. Perhaps the choice of a religion is best considered as an adult. Just saying…. Tom, Don’t beat yourself up to much. Apologize quickly and move on. I had a deep discussion with a daughter-in-law recently. I told her a truth that most of us don’t like to admit, that “Males are flawed.” She laughed and asked in what way. I responded “in every which way.” We try so much to be what is expected of us; good provider, perfect husband, perfect dad, and then we toss on top; Patriarch. We think we need to have SUPREME DIRECTIONAL CONTROL. What a crock of …. Families work together, individuals apologize when they blow it, and a new day dawns tomorrow. In closing I would ask one question, has your daughter ever stated in anger, “I HATE YOU.” Chances are she has thought it. She may be embarrassed also. Take her for ice cream…
My parents have been gone for 15 years. I visited their graves a few weeks ago, they each got two long stem red roses (four more graves required roses in the same lawn). The folks left this world nearly together, ages 88 and 95. They left just my brother and me (as they had married late), but we gave them twelve grandkids. They were so thrilled. Dad was 65 before the first one came along. We lived within blocks of each other and were always together. They were Protestants. My bro married Catholic and I married LDS, so the folks were kept busy with LDS blessings, RC baptisms, LDS baptisms, RC confirmations and LDS mission farewells for twenty years. They never missed anything and gifts were always presence. Because of our mixed religious heritage, religion was never seriously discussed, but the rituals of all the churches were enjoyed and praised. It was the same with politics, it wasn’t considered a subject worth getting feelings hurt over, just always a reminder to “do your duty and vote.” Dad was a union man and might say, “If the union is on the ballot, remember!” When I read these stories of pressure applied by loved ones to conform and be obedience and follow a narrow path, I think of my own loved ones, and I smile at their wisdom. You see, I think we will all one day stand on that beautiful shore (leaning on the Grace of our Lord of course). I can’t imagine heaven with restricted real estate, nor would I want to be part of it. Love your parents, TBM or not.
Not to take away from this thread, but I think since the term ‘considering’ is open-faced in nature, I can play Devil’s advocate. After much thought, I torn up my old recommend and will not seek another. I am programming this decision for the rest of my life. If senility should bid me to change my mind down the road, so be it. I never felt particular close to the Savior in the building we call a temple. Indeed, a walk thru a redwood forest, a stroll on a empty beach in winter, a Christmas cantata in an ancient church in Santa Fe, all have brought human spirituality to me ever so much more in my life. I recognize many factors which influence me. In my old age, I seem to find myself leaving God in his remote heaven, while finding service in the advancement of human rights. In my adult life (half a century), our church has turned away the three major social advantages of our time (black, women and gay civil rights), and bid obedience from me. I can no longer be quiet, my grandchildren need to hear from their grandfather, what is right and honest and true. Why should I teach them about Moroni if he never existed? Why would seek entry to a building with his statue on the top? Just asking….. Shalom swimordie wrote:Everyone’s posting so fast! I want to add an experience that George alluded to. When I had the talk with my bishop and gave him my letter of resignation, I told him something that I’m not sure I had ever felt in my life up to that point (35yrs orthodox TBM): I was giving my life and soul to Christ. I was truly at His mercy. It was no longer the church, the doctrine/dogma, the covenants, the testimony, the obedience, the guilt, the fear. It was just little old me and my Savior. That’s all. He was going to take me or leave me. And I felt His love at the moment, stronger than anything I had ever felt, that He would have me. He would take me. All the crap left me (mostly) and I no longer felt the intense bitterness, anger and resentment to the church and the people and my parents and my in-laws and the brethren and JS and BY and BYU and, and, and……
Anyway, just a thought, FOR WHAT ITS WORTH
😆 I wrote my letter of resignation during prop 8, in case I got called into the bishop’s office. I still have it in the glove box of my Dodge truck. My bishop is a truly fine man. He has been non-judgmental (unlike a member of our stake presidency). A buddy of mine in my HPG told me to tear up the prop 8 flyers that were stuffed into our sacrament programs for three months. I did, and left each one on the foyer table. I have always felt that this is my church, along with everybody’s else. I’m a neophyte at times…
Thanks to all who have welcomed me to StayLDS. I have enjoyed our discussion, though I was fearful (being the new guy on the block) I might get banded as a trouble maker. I’m a softy, not a trouble maker. I babysit my grandkids two, three nights a week. I also go with my gay son to his favorite drinking hole (DietCoke please) occasionally. I’m trying to stay. But I must make my own decisions on my level of involvement, if I try the ‘platter’ approach. And to Hawkgrrrl, about those members who must be absolute right about everything, I have a private name: Nazi-Mormons.
Shalom to all.
George wrote:Tom Haws wrote:I love your post. I love your questions. I am glad I get to talk with you about them. Because they are the Important Questions of life. How often shall my brother sin against me every day and I forgive him? If the corporate church continues to injury, and we continue to forgive, then are we in league with it, complicit?
Does forgiveness=complicity? Very interesting. Very, very interesting. We have spoken on other threads about how in a way each of us is complicit in the evils of the world. After all, we agreed to come here and offend each other (after a manner of speaking). One thought has been that before coming, we signed a disclaimer that no matter how bad it got, we would not cry foul. So suppose from the outset perhaps we are complicit. Wow! That’s a blow to my false self! After all, I am a Good Guy! I am so, so, so glad you are asking these questions. These are the things that really matter.
pinkpatent wrote:WE are the church. Things are changing, it just takes time. But I think we will all be amazed at how the pace of change will speed up. The coming generations are totally digital. When they have questions they turn to google, not us.
Beautiful words!
And thank you Tom, for listening to me and my questions. Many in the church have little patience with me. Twice during prop 8 I was asked pointedly, “And so you don’t support the Prophet?” I could but reference the two great commandments of Jesus. I came close to getting punched in the face. Notes were left on my pickup and bumper stickers torn from my car. Your thought, “the pace of change will speed up” gives me hope. My dad lived till 95, perhaps I will witness a marvelous work and a wonder. The question is, will I then be worshipping down the street? My choice I know, mine alone.
Tom
Heber13 wrote:George wrote:I don’t currently speak ill of the church to them, but I do testify about grace and the teachings of a carpenter named Jesus.
George, I really like this approach! Focusing on Christ as the foundation of all that we do is the safest and least cluttered path up the mountain.
George wrote:If there was never a Moroni, shouldn’t we move on?
I don’t necessarily think so. Whether Moroni was physically alive, or just a vision in someone’s head, what a great message was received through that process. There is value in the message for me, and I choose to take what parts are of value in making me a better person and focus on those.
Here’s another example of where I have come through because of my time of doubting and questioning and studying things:
If we are building a ship to survive a journey, and it is all closed up to protect us from the waves, and then my brother comes to me with some glowing rocks and says: “Hey, Christ touched these rocks, and they will give us all the light we need for our journey.” I’d say, great! Perhaps I don’t believe God’s finger did this, but the result is we have light to see in our journey.
Next time we need some light, will rocks be the best way? Probably not, I can probably think of a better way for light in my next unique circumstance. But the rocks or ships are not as important as the lesson that we can receive light and direction from God.
Future generations don’t need to get rid of light bulbs and only use rocks, there are better ways, but the point is – the symbolism of seeking God’s light, and that He will show me the way, and He will show me his love is of great value in relating the story of Mohonri Moriancmr, regardless of the details around ships and rocks and lights.
I want to start viewing the church on a more deeply spiritual and symbolic level to what it means to me and my family. Pursuing historical details on church events or Joseph Smith is interesting, but does not provide me with value going forward to lead my family to happiness. Teachings of Christ found in the bible, Book of Mormon, and church lessons do that for me, regardless of what church leaders do that I disagree with. Christ is the chief cornerstone. The Church’s stance on SSM is something for me to think about, but does not impact my relationship with Christ.
What are some of the family values the church teaches that have meant the most to you?
My fav is family can be together forever when sealed in God’s Holy Temples. That is my hope.
My hope also. As I age however, I find myself holding more to the grace promised of our Lord, than to the insignificant works of man. My grandparents were non-members. I remember granny often singing, “Shall the circle be unbroken?” Likewise, her belief/hope that we would all stand on that beautiful shore. The temple has become a ‘beach’ for me, my view of the Celestial Kingdom has become more Native American (my mother’s culture). Standing next us, good people of every race and color and faith community. Polygamy has left my view, and racism was fortunately never there. My gay son will stand with us as well.
