[George]

Tom Haws wrote:

I love your post. I love your questions. I am glad I get to talk with you about them. Because they are the Important Questions of life. How often shall my brother sin against me every day and I forgive him? If the corporate church continues to injury, and we continue to forgive, then are we in league with it, complicit?

Does forgiveness=complicity? Very interesting. Very, very interesting. We have spoken on other threads about how in a way each of us is complicit in the evils of the world. After all, we agreed to come here and offend each other (after a manner of speaking). One thought has been that before coming, we signed a disclaimer that no matter how bad it got, we would not cry foul. So suppose from the outset perhaps we are complicit. Wow! That’s a blow to my false self! After all, I am a Good Guy! I am so, so, so glad you are asking these questions. These are the things that really matter.

pinkpatent wrote:

WE are the church. Things are changing, it just takes time. But I think we will all be amazed at how the pace of change will speed up. The coming generations are totally digital. When they have questions they turn to google, not us.

Beautiful words!

And thank you Tom, for listening to me and my questions. Many in the church have little patience with me. Twice during prop 8 I was asked pointedly, “And so you don’t support the Prophet?” I could but reference the two great commandments of Jesus. I came close to getting punched in the face. Notes were left on my pickup and bumper stickers torn from my car. Your thought, “the pace of change will speed up” gives me hope. My dad lived till 95, perhaps I will witness a marvelous and a wonder. The question is, will I then be worshipping down the street? My choice I know, mine alone.

Tom

[George]

pinkpatent wrote:

Hi George,

I don’t have many answers. All I can say is that if I was in your ward, I would want you to stay. You sound nice. When our state was trying to pass a constitutional ban on gay marriages I refused to take part. In fact, I contributed funds to the fight against the constitutional ban. I wasn’t silent about how I felt, but I wasn’t shouting from the roof tops, either. It would have been totally cool to have one of the patriarchs in the ward agree with me.

I believe that a voice of charity, tolerance, and compassion is always welcome in the LDS conversation. Remember, WE are the church. Things are changing, it just takes time. But I think we will all be amazed at how the pace of change will speed up. The coming generations are totally digital. When they have questions they turn to google, not us. They are mere key strokes away from the good and bad of church history, sites like this, and many others. How comforting it would be to know that, after finding this info, they could turn to someone like you who has been there, done that, and can offer some perspective……..

Pinkpatent,

Thank you for your kind words. And concerning prop 8 (I live in California too). I stood with my ‘NO’ sign at the main crossroads in town, while one of my grand daughters stood with her ‘YES’ sign across the street. Finally a high official in our church came across and stood next to me. I asked him if the LDS church could ever go back to the comradeship we had prior to this divisive issue. He thought for a moment and then “No.” He had given $300,000 to the cause, so it is obvious as to his level of commitment. I did find other members in the ward who agreed with me. We often slipped out of Sacrament when the talk/testimonies got to offensive. Wish you had been

there…. Shalom.

[George]

But if the corporate church continues to injure, and we continue to forgive, then are we in league with it, compliant? I understand seventy times seven, I just find a problem with the assumption that Christ was then talking about his own creation, the One True Church. I’m at three score and ten, I’ve sat quietly in the pew for half a century. Do I leave my treasured posterity (20 in number) without seeing the promise land you allude to? How long will they wait? Or do I suggest that a different path up the mountain might be less cluttered? I don’t currently speak ill of the church to them, but I do testify about grace and the teachings of a carpenter named Jesus. If there was never a Moroni, shouldn’t we move on?

[George]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

We live in an apology culture which is a fairly recent invention, but apologies don’t serve. Who should apologize to whom for what and to what end? Restitution is never really possible, and often the offenders are not the apologizers (because they are dead). For example, the Anglican church apologized in the last year to Charles Darwin. Immediately, his heirs said “It’s too late” and “It’s not enough”. And he’s already buried in Westminster Abbey, high Anglican honor (which was actually for sale back then). So, what was the point?

It is similar to the Inigo Montoya and the six-fingered man in The Princess Bride. He finally corners him and asks him to beg for his life, but in the end it doesn’t matter because all he really wants is his father back, and he can’t undo what he has done.

So, if you simply want an apology, here you go: I’m sorry for the pain you feel. I’m sorry people didn’t meet your expectations. I’m sorry it has contributed to your bitterness which causes you to get stuck spiritually.

If that apology doesn’t work for you, none will. We all have to find our own way to let go of what hurts us.

Hi Hawkgirl, Thanks for the apology, but you havn’t offended me. Corporate church offended. I don’t like the coverup of our church history. I don’t like distancing ourselves from the FLDS, when it was our founder that introduced their system of marriage. I don’t like having to tell my convert SIL, that Joseph Smith did have 33 wives (he’s only been in the church twenty years and had never heard it). I expect honesty from our leaders. And when we screw up (and we all do), there is power in an apology. To never make an apology sounds arrogant. Maybe, even a positive affirmation, that our faith community is abandoning polygamy in eternity. How would that hurt our membership today? I believe my sisters and daughters and grand daughters would love to hear it over the pulpit, in the Ensign, etc.

[George]

Heber13 wrote:

George wrote:

I don’t expect you to save me. I probably will leave the church. I’ve spent two-thirds of my life as Mormon, and to find a new trail, it just hurts so bad.

Welcome George and I hope to learn from your posts, as it seems you are further along the journey than I am in mine. Your last phrase is making me wonder what hurts so bad? Is it leaving what your family is still a part of or just the journey into the unknown? Can you share a little more about that (if you want to)?

Anyway. Thanks for taking time to post your thoughts.

You asked about hurt. Twelve members of my immediate family live in my ward. We occupy a complete pew (sometimes two) every Sunday. We pass our grand babies along the row. It’s a time any grandparents would love. Leaving the church puts me on the outside. As far as the journey into the unknown, I have researched the Unitarian-Universalist fellowship and like their efforts in social justice. Our church has fought the three major social advancements of my lifetime; black, women and gay civil rights. To facilitate these changes in my life at three score & ten, not easy. I lose the title Patriarch, though perhaps its just a title. If I gain my own integrity…

[George]

As a TBM with two gay brothers (one deceased) and a gay son, I resented the church’s involvement in prop 8. For twelve weeks, I picked up the ward program for Sacrament to be greeted by a prop 8 flyer falling into my lap. I told my friend who was putting them in the programs after the first week, that I would be taking an 11 week vacation from church. He actually got tears in his eyes. He begged me to simply tear up the flyers and leave them in the foyer. Of course, note that he didn’t simply put the flyers in a on the foyer table for those who might want them. I walked out of Sacrament four times over those three months. I couldn’t bear testimonies about prop 8 that didn’t mention Jesus Christ. I couldn’t stand members of the stake presidency with their ‘obedience is the first law of Heaven’ talks. I turned completely away from Priesthood Meeting, so I didn’t have to hear where to picket and when to pass out flyers door to door. I have never gone back to PM. I eventually was quietly approached by other ward members who agreed with me, but afraid to let leadership know. We built a support system outside the ward meetings. I picketed against prop 8 on the main corner of town, while one of my 15 grandchildren picketed with the ward on the other corner. You seen, I’ve given the church half a century of service. Four of my five children are TBMs (the other son is gay, remember) I’ve brought a large posterity of offspring to the LDS church. I feel used. I feel I have brought my loved ones up in a racest, narrow-minded, conditional church. What will I say to my non-members parents when I see them in Heaven? They were simple followers of Christ. They loved everyone and embraced the diversity of the human family. We LDS are so blind.

[George]

For me, the only place is California. I find so much diversity. I have friends in other faith communities, and have been invited out to various activities. One friend in a Unitarian-Universalist fellowship has given me much to ponder & has all the characteristics of a true friend. I’ve lived in half a dozen wards and found many members in my comfort zone (the very liberal perspective). During prop 8, a half dozen ward members commiserated together, when it was necessary to walk out of ward meetings. Thus my answer, its best to live out of Utah, in a urban rather than rural setting. The LDS church (to me), becomes just another church and that’s what works best for me.

[Author]

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