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I don’t normally talk about it to most members I come across. I go to a singles ward. I usually wear a suit but I wear a black shirt instead of white. Other than that I look the same. When I am asked why I chose to wear a black shirt I seem to respond differently depending on who is asking. Although I will keep the term disengaged in mind. I might even use it next time when I am asked about my black shirt.
Here is one my cousin told me… Quote:What is the difference between a Mormon and a Southern Baptist?
The Southern Baptist will wave at you when they see you in the liquor store.
:wave: I agree that Paganism isn’t a religion though the term is used to describe a certain groups that sometimes refer to themselves as neo pagan. I have only looked into a few of them and seriously participated with one. For the sake of keeping the groups anonymous I chose to blanket them all in the term pagan. I have been over thinking the Moroni story found in the introductory pages of the Book of Mormon. I am open minded enough to think that maybe Joseph Smith Jr. really did see an Angel or that he at least saw something. What I have been thinking about lately is the description of Moroni.
“He had on a loose robe of most exquisite whiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly I had ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrists; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.
No other Clothing but his robe. This is what I’ve been pondering on for some time now.
I find myself rather intrigued by various forms of pagan religions; specifically those that use some form of magic or sorcery. Within the rituals it is common for the individuals to wear robes. The participants may choose to wear nothing underneath the robe. Within certain groups the participants will take off the robes and perform the ritual in skyclad (being clothed by the sky/wearing nothing at all)
I am well aware that Joseph Smith Jr. was a glass looker. It may be possible in his search for spiritual enlightenment he practiced rituals in robes or skyclad as well.If not I’m sure he was well aware of such things. He could have made it up. Then again he could have seen or experienced it for real.
If it was indeed an angel why does the angel dress in a manor of a pagan?
these have been my thoughts on the matter.
mormonheretic wrote:If it works, I would do it and wouldn’t think twice. Mormons don’t ban alcohol or caffeine in medicines; we drink Nyquil and NoDoze as needed, and nobody bats an eye.
That is SO TRUE!!
I have spoken to plenty of Mormons who admit to taking NyQuil to help them relax or fall asleep.
I go to a singles ward and I know plenty of people who regularly partake of energy drinks to keep them awake for odd hour jobs and studying for tests.
I personally always saw the Word of Wisdom as a means to avoid addiction.
When I was attending college I drank energy drinks very regularly. If I didn’t have my energy drink at the usual time I would begin to have a mild headache and a slight sense of anxiety.
I know plenty of people who need their Starbucks every day or else they will have a similar reaction.
Currently I will have a cup of coffee every once in awhile. I don’t feel the absolute need to have it though because I only drink one coffee mug.
I frequently drink green tea, which has plenty of health benefits. I personally enjoy that it is a 0 calorie drink that can boost my metabolism so it’s technically a negative calorie drink. When I don’t have my green tea I do not feel anxious nor do I have any headache issues.
I started drinking Irish Breakfast tea. It will be interesting to see if I have any kind of withdrawal if I make it a daily habit and then suddenly stop. I’ll let you all know if I do. I don’t think I will though because 1 cup of black breakfast tea has less caffeine than one cup of coffee.
I always enjoyed the term disenchanted. It’s like I don’t totally believe in the magic anymore. Granted I do believe in natural energies of nature and the energies of the universe that holds everything together. I personally feel that a priesthood blessing and prayers can tap into the same energies. I also feel that blessings and prayers of other belief systems can also tap into that same energy. The Mormon’s don’t have a Monopoly on the ability to bless. I no longer see my Bishop as being a local mouth piece for God. My Bishop’s advice is simply his opinion and I can take what I want of it or leave it completely. I feel the same way about the Prophet. I have a great deal of respect for my bishop and the prophet but I see them as men who try their best to guide a group of people. I no longer see them as magical people.
wayfarer wrote:greenapples wrote:…With all this in mind I made the choice that I don’t need to know.
I started reading through the 4 gospels of Jesus. I feel at peace with the teachings and the overall message. I do not KNOW but I have faith. I do have faith that the atonement of Jesus allows me to repent of my sins as I continue to grow.
There is a part of me that wonders “What if there really is no atonement?”
To that I answer ” Well I’m sure the superior powers (whoever or whatever they may be ) will forgive me for my imperfections as I grow on my Journey.
I don’t always pray in the way I was taught, however I will many times end my prayers in the name of Jesus Christ.
i love your post — it uplifted me.i think it important to recognize what we don’t know, and what we may never know. there are a host of historical thinkgs we will never know for sure. some of these are ‘highly unlikely’, but many, most, are really a who knows? question. to me, if it doesnt matter, then suspended judgment works.
but for things i consider highly unlikely, another strategy may be necessary. it often matters. take, for example, the creation account, especially the literal interpretation of young earth. it is possible that god created a young earth in 6 days or even 6000 years. but, it is so unlikely as to have a probability of .00000000000000000000001 or less. but how does it matter? if we take the bible literally, then we must reject valid science and consider that god is a liar. neither outcome is desirable.
another unlikely is the idea that jesus cursed the fig tree. it is just a very weird story, so one might say it doesnt matter. but what does it communicate about god’s nature if we allow it to be true?
closer to home, i find it extraordinarily unlikely that polygamy and specifically polyandry came from god as practiced by BY and JS. it matters. my grandmother’s life was severely damaged by this heinous “principle”. it violates a huge number of principles of basic morality.
same deal with blacks and the priesthood.
many will say about historical issues that they are no longer relevant. they are because the church makes a falsifiable claim: “if you follow the prophet you will never be led astray”. this claim is easy to reject if i can find a single instance where the prophet taught a false principle as doctrine. adam god, polygamy, blacks being withheld from priesthood are all evidence of false, misleading doctrines. it matters, because by continuing to make the infallibility claim while promoting institutional discrimination against gays and women forces people do do wrong things.
so, i appreciate that there are some things do not matter. not knowing may be an acceptable strategy for them. i also think that we morally have the obligation to reject material falsehoods that harm people.
just my opinion…
That was quite the Jump from talking about Faith or belief in Christ to talking about the unfavorable teachings of Mr. Young and Mr. Smith Jr.
I was quite angry with those teachings as well.
However I’ve moved passed that anger.
I’ve spent time outside of the church. I am now back in. I have developed a different perspective. I choose not to agree with all the teachings of the prophets and church leaders of the past and present. However I graciously appreciate many of the teachings and standards of the current LDS church.
If there is ever a time where I mostly disagree with current teachings then I will simply leave.
Regardless I will always have faith in a higher power and will have faith in Jesus Christ.
I was raised in the LDS church. There was some a couple years back that I really didn’t have any Faith in Jesus. I think my biggest issue is that I was trying to KNOW that Jesus was the Savior. I did plenty of research on the Archaeological evidences that Jesus was the savior. Well I felt cheated and short handed when I found that there was plenty of evidence that proved him not to be. There are books that didn’t go into the Bible. These books make Jesus seem like a good man but not the Son of God. In fact some of the earliest of Christians appreciated the teachings of Jesus but did not believe him to be divine. They saw him as a good teacher or a prophet.
I saw on the news that a bone box was found containing the Bones of Jesus. On the box it said ” Jesus Son of Mary.”
I learned that the shroud of Turin (the burial clothes of Jesus) was a fake made by Leonardo da Vinci. The image was really a self portrait imprinted using a process similar to photography.
With all this in mind I made the choice that I don’t need to know.
I started reading through the 4 gospels of Jesus. I feel at peace with the teachings and the overall message. I do not KNOW but I have faith. I do have faith that the atonement of Jesus allows me to repent of my sins as I continue to grow.
There is a part of me that wonders “What if there really is no atonement?”
To that I answer ” Well I’m sure the superior powers (whoever or whatever they may be ) will forgive me for my imperfections as I grow on my Journey.
I don’t always pray in the way I was taught, however I will many times end my prayers in the name of Jesus Christ.
A few nights ago I was at a party with a bunch of LDS people. As the party began to die out for some reason religeon became a topic of conversation. I told the people somewhat of my spiritual struggles and Journey.
I pointed out that whenever I have gone up on Fast and Testimony meeting I would never mention anything about the Book of Mormon. I might reference the Bible but I would never say ” I KNOW” I would say that I have Faith.
I came to find that there were people close to my age who had some of the same struggles.
The people there admitted that for the most part they were agnostic!
They thought that it was really cool that I did so much research in my own religion as well as beleif systems of others.
We spoke of the Fowler Stages of Faith.
We all agreed that we were in Stage 4 and probably heading towards Stage 5 for reasons that we all kind of let go of the anger; yet we all attend church for the sake of community.
For some reason the Salamander Hoax never really bothered me too much. It is unfortunate that Mark Hoffman ended up killing people. Perhaps it can be a little discouraging to think that the presidency of the church should have Known or whatever.
Mark Hoffman was such a Habitual Liar that he could practically lie to himself. He was and excellent salesman and made himself appear so cool headed and knowledgeable on just about any subject.
Most of my issues are personal experiences that caused me to ask “What If?”
Other little issues I have are with some of the leadership in the early years of the church. It came to be a little bit of a shock to see that the church today was not very much like the church in the times of Brigham young. It was a shock to me of some of the things Brigham Young preached and his personal remarks.
For a time I even investigated the other Mormon churches that did not Follow Brigham young and became their own separate church after the death of Joseph Smith Jr.
I found the Community of Christ interesting. However I personally did not feel that I was totally at home with them.
Even though I have little issues with certain things I feel at home with the LDS church.
CandleLight25 wrote:I really enjoyed that GreenApples!! Thanks! I started off saying that a writer from Star trek is Mormon and might have influenced it, but alas, I am wrong.
:shh: The producer of Battlestar Galactica, Glen Larson, is who I was thinking about, and he’s Mormon.😆 Some of the main writers of Star Trek are Catholic though. So you will see some parallels between Star Trek and Catholicism. In later Star Trek shows and movies they bring in other Belief systems.
I’m glad a thread like this was started. I know that it’s not a movie but… there was an Episode of Star Trek next Generation I saw recently that kind of spoke to me in my current situation.
An Ancient Klingon named Kahless is somewhat like an old prophet or possibly a Savior of the Klingons. Kahless had United the ancient Klingons and became their Emperor for a time. One day Kahless decided to leave his people but told him that he would one day return.
While a Klingon is in a deep traditional meditation it is believed that the spirit of Kahless will appear to the Klingon and give him or her guidance.
Worf who is the Klingon on the enterprise begins to have a major faith crises and wonders if he really believes in any of the old stories of Kahless.
Worf is relieved of his duties to allow him to find whatever was missing in his life. He visited with a group of highly spiritual Klingons where he prayed in a traditional Klingon style. Some of the youngest of the Klingon men claimed to have seen images of Kahless. Worf remained greatly disappointed when he did not see anything.
One night when Worf had thought about giving up on everything Kahless had appeared to Worf, however it wasn’t an image it was a physical being that claimed to be Kahless returning to reunite the Klingon people.
Kahless fought like the ancient records had read. His DNA proved to be KAHLESS!!
Worf regained his Faith!!!
:clap: Until…. Kahless was unable to answer deep doctrinal questions and couldn’t remember little details of his ancient stories.
The Highly spiritual and religious Klingons began to fight with the Highly educated Government Klingons. The Government would not step aside and give their power to Kahless because they were not convinced that he was who he claimed to be even with DNA evidence.
Eventually the Religous Klingons admitted to Worf that the Kahless was actually a clone created in a lab. They simply put the ancient stories as memories into the clone so he would think that he was Kahless.
At that point Worf lost all Faith. Even with a loss of faith Worf stepped in to prevent war between the Church and Government. Worf told everyone that even though this Kahless was a clone he should be allowed to be an Emperor for spiritual and religious guidance. Though he was just a Clone he should act as the Heir of Kahlass.
The Cloned Kahlass probably felt horrible knowing full well that his whole life was fake. As a way to say thanks to Worf for making him Emperor he found the time to comfort Worf in his faith crises. He told Worf that even if the real Kahlass never returns he still left behind good ideas and teachings and his spirit lives on in the hearts of every Klingon.
The whole episode totally spoke to me in my current situation.
I know I gave away everything but… I kind of felt like it was the only way to express the parallels of this episode to what so many of us here may be going through right now.
Nice Intro Candle!! I’m glad you eventually found your way here.
It doesn’t matter if you are a Middle Mormon, Liberal Mormon, and any other Hybrid Mormon.
Some Missionaries in my ward told me that though they personally appreciate deep doctrine and interesting theories they are only allowed to teach the very basics of the gospel. They are only really allowed to teach what their Missionary books tell them to teach.
I personally did not go on a Mission.
I did serve a Mini Mission when I was in High School though
So after the Mini Mission my Bishop expected all the youth who participated to bare their testimonies and tell of some of the things they learned from their Mini Mission experience.
I was a little nervous about baring my testimony because I knew of at least some of the controversies dealing with the Book of Abraham since I was about 10. I learned much more about that subject when I was High School.
I remember going up and saying some words for reasons that my Bishop was practically glaring at me to get up there. During my testimony I remember saying something along the lines of
” I feel that the Book of Mormon and the Bible is the word of God. I also feel that the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price are also good books that can lead people closer to Christ.”
Just a few years ago a former Youth leader of mine had commented on what I said back then. He told me that he began to cry with Joy and felt comforted because of my Comment. At that moment in time he had stumbled across some of the issues with the Pearl of Great Price. He also figured that I probably already knew about them because I was greatly interested in Egypt and Mummies at a very young age. Then he turned to me and said ” I didn’t expect you to go on a Mission knowing what you knew.”
I think your Dad gave you some good advice to stop listening to others and start listening to yourself.
Sometimes people just don’t feel or hear the call to go on a mission.
It all depends on what you want to do.
You must be referring to this post: Katzpur wrote:I just got home from Fast and Testimony Meeting. I swear I’m not going to subject myself to another one for a good long time. Today, it was one little kid after another, all of them saying, “I love my mom and dad and I know the Church is true inthenameofJesusChristAmen.” That in and of itself almost put me over the edge, but then a man I didn’t know took his two kids up to the stand. The oldest one was maybe four years old. He stood at the microphone and his dad whispered in his ear what to say. He’d repeat it, and then his dad would whisper the next sentence. Of course he was prompted to say that he knows the Church is true. Then the dad held the even younger kid up to the microphone because he wasn’t even tall enough to reach it when standing on the riser. The kid was maybe three at the most. He just stared at the audience for a few seconds and then buried his head in his dad’s chest. The dad says, “He’s shy, but what he wants to say is that he knows the Church is true.”
Who does this dad think he’s kidding? And what kind of a favor does he think he’s doing for his kids? By the time they’re old enough to actually gain a testimony, it won’t even occur to them that they need to. They’ll have been saying, “I know the Church is true” for nearly twenty years by then and will never have given it a moment’s thought. I’m sorry. I know this is just a rant and I’m probably coming across as a real jerk, but this is not what I go to Church to hear. This is religious indoctrination. That’s all it is. Why do we encourage our kids to parrot us instead of encouraging them to think for themselves? And why do so many people in the audience just eat it up? It just drives me up a wall. Sorry.
To be honest with you I think your post was well spoken. I have been attending a Singles ward off and on for about 6 years now. I have almost forgotten the Silliness of little children being whispered ” I Know the church is true” by their parents and then repeating it.
I think you make a very good point here. It is becoming more and more common for people to “Fall Away
🙄 ” in their late teens and 20s. I think part of it is the fact that they are told to Know by their parents.Personally I feel blessed for reasons that my parents never did the fake whispering child testimonies with me or anyone else in my Family.
My Father did not go on a mission and had his own moments of Inactivity.
My Mother came from a Semi active family. Though she lived right next to an LDS church while growing up she would go off and on.
So although I was raised in the church I feel like I wasn’t raised overly churchy. Although we were encouraged to go to church it wasn’t an absolute expectation.
Some members of my family no longer self identify as Mormon, however they still have a great amount of respect for the LDS church. I feel that if my parents forced us to go then those who are no longer Mormon would also Hate the church with a passion.
I personally do have issue with some of the Mormon Culture, however I still am okay with the LDS church to remain relatively active. Though I am not an RM, I haven’t gone through the Temple and haven’t really felt a burning desire to go. I am an Elder however and have used my priesthood to aid sick friends and family. I defiantly have a testimony of priesthood and have seen little miracles. I think those little experiences is what keeps me going.
Although I am annoyed when people tell me that I am not a “TRUE ELDER” until I go through the Temple. When I hear comments like that it greatly offends me. Just because I can’t help out on the Ward Temple night doesn’t mean I can’t serve in the church in other ways. Instead of going to the Temple with my Fellow Elders I will instead make an extra point to show up to service projects. I have gladly served as Security in troubling church parking lots. (We have issues with people breaking into cars. Having mean faced people like me on Security prevents theft.)
I remain as an Anomaly The Elder who is not endowed.
To the church I say Take me as I am or leave me as I am. If they leave me as I am I do have other places to go. In the past I have explored other belief systems and participated in some as well. Though I no longer practice these other beliefs I do feel the welcoming whispers.
I also feel welcomed enough by the LDS church. So for now I remain.
