[grobert93]

DarkJedi wrote:

grobert93 wrote:

IMO you owe the missionaries nothing. They will, after all, transfer out eventually and forget about you. That’s the reality of serving. You’re just a name on a list of people to be contacted every 6 months. Take nothing personal of it, they aren’t losing sleep worrying about getting in contact with you. They’re losing sleep over failing to contact enough less actives, for failing to bring back enough “lost sheep”. For failing to baptize enough people. That’s what’s on their minds. So, you choose if you want them to contact you or not. That’s your own choice. But you already know what they will do and say. You’ve already made up your mind. Why waste your or their time? I understand there is guilt, and that means the church’s toxic culture of pressuring us to care about the missionaries is still strong. Don’t give in. The church owes the missionaries much better than this.

I agree I owe them nothing which is good because I have little to offer them. They can contact me because I choose to leave basic contact info available on Tools so ward members can contact me if they wish. One approach would be to not respond to the missionaries’ calls/messages which I am perfectly capable of doing without guilt. They have not been pesky, this is the first contact attempt at least this year (I can’t remember when the last time was but it was well before COVID). Maybe I’ll wait until they become pesky, hoping they don’t become pesky.

I’ll be clear I don’t have any guilt in relation to this, although I know people who do/would. I only feel bad for them on a human level because I wouldn’t want to be in their situation.

I’m glad you’re standing your ground.

As a former missionary, I certainly do understand the feeling of being human. It sucks being a young inexperienced boy expected to act like an adult for two years. It’s painful thinking about.

DarkJedi wrote:

I was talking to a friend in the ward who also mentioned he got a call this week from the missionaries. Although he sometimes complains about the missionaries pressuring him to share with his friends, he does answer their calls and he talks to them. Turns out apparently this particular call was the missionaries trying to get us to share Pres. Nelson’s “message of hope” with our friends and then inviting them to speak with the missionaries. He’s not forthright enough to tell them he doesn’t intend to do that (even though he did complain about the pressure), which will likely only lead them to continue to call in the future. I told him they had called me as well but I didn’t answer and didn’t return their call. If that’s all it is I may be off the hook for some more months just because I haven’t responded (and now don’t intend to).

FWIW, I honestly don’t think anyone outside the church gives a hoot about what RMN has to say any more than most members care what the pope has to say.

As one who left, I can affirm that the rest of the world basically doesn’t care about or even notice the minuscule noise the church makes. It’s just another church making noise.When the church becomes predictable with their “messages”, the rest of the world filled with scientists, historians and academics don’t pay attention.

[grobert93]

IMO you owe the missionaries nothing. They will, after all, transfer out eventually and forget about you. That’s the reality of serving. You’re just a name on a list of people to be contacted every 6 months. Take nothing personal of it, they aren’t losing sleep worrying about getting in contact with you. They’re losing sleep over failing to contact enough less actives, for failing to bring back enough “lost sheep”. For failing to baptize enough people. That’s what’s on their minds. So, you choose if you want them to contact you or not. That’s your own choice. But you already know what they will do and say. You’ve already made up your mind. Why waste your or their time? I understand there is guilt, and that means the church’s toxic culture of pressuring us to care about the missionaries is still strong. Don’t give in. The church owes the missionaries much better than this.

[grobert93]

I feel like staylds had the purpose of helping struggling members… stay LDS. Not all of us found this resolution the proper course of action for ourselves and thus, we are leftLDS instead. So it’s harder to feel welcome, included and involved in the community when the goal is to stayLDS.

I wonder how many lurkers have leftLDS and do not know how to contribute to faith promoting material?

[grobert93]

In my biased opinion, the fact that the church expects these young children with developing emotions and intellect to have a testimony of something that is so personal and complex is unacceptable and uncomfortable. You did nothing wrong. Just know that if your child is unable to “have a testimony” that they should not feel shamed for it just because “other kids their age do”. I think there are more important things to emotionally lead our children to than a scripted recitation of mormon beliefs about god. I see nothing wrong with what you did and I wish you and them the best with development

[grobert93]

nibbler wrote:

Quote:

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

I’d love it if the teachings and policies moved away from finding ways to condemn and move towards love, acceptance, and ministering.

I am in general convinced that there are kinder and compassionate atheists in the world than likewise with Christians. So many claim to follow Jesus but are more judgmental and holier than though art, while those of us who gave up believing in the mormon Jesus now find humanity as a pure and sacred thing to care for, without the promise of rewards and praise.

About rape like situations, my father in law told me that his uncle was a rapist, but was also a baptist preacher in the south who “did no wrong”. Likewise, my mother did very unlike things to me, but the church views her as a kind wonderful soul. I think it’s generational more than just the mormons. A lot of these issues, from gender identity to sexual assault were taboo to discuss even 20 years ago. Most church leaders and local leaders are gen x or older, when it was harder to discuss these topics. So it’s no wonder the church struggles; it’s led by old men with 1920-1950s social standards who are unable to change because they are just too old to do so,

[grobert93]

I had a lot of thoughts to share, but since many are led by my emotional reaction to how to church handles doubts, I wanted to give myself some time to compose things better. However, one of my favorite website blogs updated with their take on this, and it articulates my thoughts much better. I hope this website and linking it is allowed, feel free to correct me if not

(Admin Note: We don’t allow links to anti-Mormon sites. The deleted link is to a site that purports to present factual information solely for information, but the writer identifies as an ex-Mormon and there is a clear anti-Mormon perspective that includes conclusions that appear to be focused on trying to convince people to reject the LDS Church and leave it. If there are quotes from the site that you want to discuss, it it is okay to quote them here – again, as long as the focus is on helping people stay who want to stay, not influencing them to leave.)

[grobert93]

DarkJedi wrote:

grobert93 wrote:

Plus now that I’ve decided that swearing, drinking coffee and not paying tithing is normal and healthy, there’s a lot less to “repent” for anyway. :thumbup: :angel:

I think this is the key, along with letting go of the associated guilt/fear.

And again, let us not confuse or conflate repentance and penance.

Exactly. I still do not tolerate stealing or murder for example. I believe in being honest and kind. But you don’t need religion to tell you that. I think you inherit those traits and standards as you live life and realize what makes life a whole lot easier and what doesn’t.

[grobert93]

nibbler wrote:

grobert93 wrote:

I think it will take another 10-20 years before a shift occurs in the church leadership.

Thread tangent. This comment made me curious so I whipped up a quick spreadsheet. Assuming all current leaders live to be 95, this is roughly how things would play out (of course some will live longer, some shorter):

Tenure as prophet:

RMN: 2018 – 2020

DHO: 2020 – 2027

JRH: 2027 – 2036

DFU: 2036 -2036

DAB: 2036 – 2047

Stevenson: 2047 – 2050

Soares: 2050 – 2054

1) People can surprise you

2) Shifts aren’t dependent on just one person, the people and events surrounding a person have a great influence on the direction things go.

Thank you for noting this; I had actually mistyped and meant 20-30 years, but it seems with some basic math that it could take longer. I personally used to love JRH and DFU, though not as much now that my views have adjusted.

I do agree, people can and will surprise us. That is why we need to have hope that it won’t take until 2050 for basic human rights to be respected in the church.

[grobert93]

Gerlinde wrote:

First of all, I would like to thank all those who have responded here. I now understand a little more why the Church has problems with the subject.

I still have one question:

If science accepts transsexuality and no longer tries to heal it, as they have done it with the issue of homosexuality for many decades; why does the Church not accept these scientific knowledge? Why are church leaders so stubborn in my eyes?

If you grew up in a political atmosphere where you were told as a child that a specific and certain ethnicity was from the devil and needed to be destroyed, you’d probably believe it the rest of your life, even if people changed and the political climate was better.

Likewise, if you grew up being told homosexuality is a sin and any alteration to your body or gender identity is also bad (not just from Christianity but from the societal norms… remember when couples slept in different beds on tv shows? now they sleep in the same bed, the scandals!), they attribute their societal norms as god’s law. They are only human, as the church leaders graciously remind us.

I think it will take another 10-20 years before a shift occurs in the church leadership. More and more younger people who grew up in societally open minded cultures probably beginning with millennial’s parents in the late 60s and fresher will need to have power in the church (and for that matter, the government) for the law to “change” and decide the LGBT community isn’t some terrible decease. Notice how darker skinned people still are discriminated against even though we decided they were human beings like 50 years ago? It will take time. All we can do is be patient, be friends and vote when we do have the power to change leadership. With the church, we just smile and decide if we really need 80-90 year old men telling us what is morally right according to their 1920-1940 version of society is.

So, they are only stubborn because it’s what they know. They may not even be as malicious as I thought they are. They are just convinced and see no reason to change. Let the younger ones outlive the older ones and change will happen. It happened with blacks, with women and with other silly things in the past. This too shall pass one day as well.

[grobert93]

I used to feel like the most unworthy sinner in the world when I actually believed the claims from the church and took it into my heart. I begged god for forgiveness when I discovered private time, I begged God to forgive me when I accidentally said words like beaver dam. I thought I was horrible and not worthy of being clean and recovering.

Now that I’ve left, I realize the church owes ME. they have hundreds of years of mistakes and offensive behaviors to repent to god for before they even have the RIGHT to tell me to repent to be worthy. Now I challenge the church to take Oak’s claim that they offer no apologies and ask if they don’t have to, can I skip mine too?

I feel a lot more clean and open now that I have decided that if there IS a god, he is more angry at organizations that abuse power and hurt people than little me discovering private time. Once I became reassured by others not of the faith and by my own logical conclusion, I just simply allowed myself to be happier and less critical of myself.

Plus now that I’ve decided that swearing, drinking coffee and not paying tithing is normal and healthy, there’s a lot less to “repent” for anyway. :thumbup: :angel:

[grobert93]

I struggled as a youth to overcome a natural part of boyhood which the church drilled in my head was a horrible sin. I felt guilty, felt awful and never thought I could feel forgiven. And indeed, I’d hide this struggle in temple interviews, held callings and more. Eventually the mission came and I felt so burdened that I confessed to my (at that point) old bad habit that I wasn’t involved with for years and was told that I was good to go. It didn’t feel like I had been fully forgiven, so I confessed to my MTC bishop and got the same reassurance I was ok.

It wasn’t until I came home from my mission, got married and left the church that I sought therapy, learned that my habit wasn’t a horrible sin and through medical and emotional healing, I have now felt the “Forgiveness” feeling I was told I would feel long ago.

So, if we count emotional elevation and self-praise and support as forgiveness, then yes I have felt it. If we count the Holy Ghost telling me god forgave me? well, I don’t know about that.

[grobert93]

The church ls less relevant to me now that I’m out, so I find less reason to be actively involved. While I believe this site is perfect for those who want to STAY, for those who want to LEAVE it doesn’t fulfill as satisfying.

That, and the pandemic caused a lot of life events to not occur and thus we are more busy dealing with cleaning, budgeting and school just started so homework as well, haha.

[grobert93]

I like all three responses to my question and the OP question.

But if God is hiding in the shadows quietly getting work done and allowing us to give ourselves credit, then I will cycle once again to the merits of the truth claims from the mormon church. What makes the mormons right or more correct from any other church that teaches about God and that god COULD use in a similar fashion? Is it really this priesthood thing where somehow because we have the “right” power, that makes our efforts more valid?

[grobert93]

Cadence wrote:

DarkJedi wrote:

Cadence wrote:

Why would we want to worship a god who hides and lets is suffer. Makes no sense

Maybe God does expect us to worship. Maybe instead of the “sovereign God” who sees us as servants and expects worship, God really is the loving parent God LDS theology alludes to (Givens’s God who weeps)? What if God can’t prevent our suffering because it’s part of the plan and God is limited in the ability to interact because of covenants and laws God must obey? What if God “hides” because there is no other option?

I am fine with a God who cant interact, but that is a one way street. If the theology says you must do this and that but God really cant assist or even tell you you are doing OK, that is a lopsided relationship.

I just can not keep checking the boxes with no feedback. It has worn me out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree. I think the issue for those of us who have left isn’t that God doesn’t talk to us. It’s that he apparently seems more concerned over using the word Mormon, the logo of the church, and trivial things relevant to the mechanics of the functions the church has. God does talk, but he talks about things that won’t feed the poor and uplift the troubled. He ignores those like me who find more questions than answers until we look outside the church approved sources, then we feel betrayed and hurt and ignored by God, who continues to lead his mormon prophets by way of technicality (women can now wear pants, dress code updated, missionaries can skype weekly!) instead of addressing real history and real pain that real people still experience.

[grobert93]

nibbler wrote:

Roy wrote:

What other steps might the church make to reinforce it’s commitment against racism?

I wanted to report on a really good SM (streamed meeting) I saw Sunday.

Two African American members gave a talk and they talked about racism with the kid gloves off. It was the most powerful meeting I’ve heard in a church setting in over a decade.

They addressed current events and their experiences of being on the receiving end of racism growing up. Where it really started to hit home was when they talked about racism that their children have faced. I know I’ve fallen into the trap of thinking, “Well yeah, that was a long time ago, this is 2020.” It was eye opening to hear stories of things that their children have suffered in the here and now.

One of the speakers, a counselor in the SP, talked about specific instances of racism that their children have faced at church. They pointed out how in some cases the lesson manuals were the source of the racist remarks.

The talks were relevant, eye opening, and powerful.

I love this. I think we forget it’s not just the top leadership being sexist, racist and otherwise ignorant of the reality of our world, but it’s down to local members too. It may be 2020, but there are still people who believe the earth is flat, NASA is fake, vaccines make people autistic and so on. I have the hope that in the next 20-50 years the next generations coming through can help continue to clean up the old school habits that we still see.

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