Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
rrosskopf wrote:
Old Timer wrote:
Quote:“Does the gift of God seem too meager for you?”
Consider, please, how condescending and condemning that question sounds to someone who has been uber faithful in the past and now is struggling.
I guess it could be taken that way. Some people would just realize that it is a gift from God and that they should look it from that perspective. There is no need to overcomplicate things. We don’t need to know all things from the beginning. We don’t need a perfect church. We don’t need perfect prophets. We do need to know the consequences of our actions. We can learn those the hard way, or the easy way.
I actually like this perspective. We don’t need a perfect church, we don’t need perfect prophets. If this is an acceptable idea, then let’s treat the church and prophets as if they were not perfect but trying their best. Then we can learn to self-ponder and study what we are taught in the imperfect church by the imperfect prophet… sort of like the home study program! I like to see the prophets as imperfect humans with a stressful calling. When we see them this way, it becomes easier to relate to them, but to not take every word they say as doctrine or perfect gospel teachings. This in return can promote the self-discovery principle the home-centric gospel program is encouraging. All in all, we all benefit.
rrosskopf wrote:
grobert93 wrote:The church isn’t for everyone. The church Jesus established is not equal to the LDS church today. It may have the priesthood and teach the gospel and perform the ordinances, but as former President Utchdorf himself said in conference, the restoration of the gospel is still happening. We cannot expect the church to satisfy our needs. We cannot expect the church to “feed us until we are full”.
Is there any man or women alive that wouldn’t benefit from repentance? Or having the Holy Ghost as a constant companion?
Repentance is not a unique doctrine in the LDS church, or even Christianity. The concept of forgiveness, of letting go of mistakes, of healing is a very human recognized trait and power. We emphasize it in our church because it is a key element in the progress toward receiving the ordinances that the church provides to faithful members. Of course all mankind would benefit from the holy ghost, the priesthood, the blessings from receiving their endowment, serving a mission, and so many other things. I am not denying the Church provides these opportunities for us to grow. But the church not does exclusively provide these opportunities, nor teach these principles. Likewise in context of my original post, the church itself I believe is open for forgiveness as well. The church has made mistakes in the past, and one way to help it to grow is to forgive.
rrosskopf wrote:
grobert93 wrote:It’s the act of a thin and not-well designed under garment brushing against her skin that is the problem.
There seems to be a tendancy to treat every problem as if it is insurmountable. I don’t believe in that philosophy. Certainly there is a cost to faith. If your faith were free, it would be of little value to you. It is all too easy to come up with excuses. Laban can kill a hundred men; he can certainly kill us. Instead of dwelling on the negative, shouldn’t we encourage people? Literally give them the courage to act in faith?
While I understand where this attitude is coming from (since I was once a “have faith and it will work out” kind of person myself, it does lead to both unhealthy and even toxic ideas and expectations places on each other that may be out of context of the Lord’s initial desire. For those who believe in wearing the garment according to the instructions (letter of the law) given, there is no excuse. But there are others who believe that the Lord is more interested in our efforts to try. I don’t think the Lord will punish someone with a skin condition who is unable to wear garments, just as much as he probably wouldn’t punish someone who is physically disabled and unable to easily attend the temple frequently.
The world is not black and white, and I don’t believe the church is either. If the Lord is truly that strict to all of his children , then I truly believe a good majority of us would not qualify for the highest degree, even if we tried. Even with the atonement.
Rumin8 wrote:
On the moon landings, I recently watched some documentaries on how the original moon landing could have been, and probably was, faked. I myself don’t believe that it was faked, but the evidence was interesting and compelling. When I brought it up to my wife, she got upset with me and said something to the effect of “why can’t people [me] just let go of the “why” and “what” and accept it as the marvel it was? Why does everything have to be “proved?” It was quite an outburst for her and it took me off guard until I realized that the things I was sharing about “truth” about the moon landings are very similar to the ideas I have been sharing during my faith crises. It was an interesting parallel, and I have tried harder since then to dwell more in the wonder (and meaning) of things, and try (somewhat unsuccessfully) to leave alone the “why” and “what.” This is easier said than done.
When you put your testimony / trust in the wrong thing, and that thing proves to be something different than you thought, it can lead to shattering spirits and aggressive emotions. Missionaries teach that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and had restored the church? Gain a testimony of him as perfect. Learn later that he used rocks and a hat to translate the BOM and had under aged wives, plus violently destroyed a printing press? Lose your testimony or fight against these “truths” by arguing they are ruining your belief in his happy, well mannered self that the church and missionaries teach. Taught by missionaires and church leaders that the church has been fully restored, that is it 100% true, led directly by the Lord and all commandments are given by revelation? Then gain a testimony that tithing builds temples, the leaders are all in unity and anyone who protests the church is confused, sad or led astray. Find out that the church pays the 12 and prophet, has stock and other assets, banned blacks from the priesthood and currently struggle to accept the LGBT community? Same reaction.
My mom and sister are both this way with movies, sometimes. Growing up my dad would make fun of a movie as we’d watch it and they’d complain he’s ruining it for them. Movies like harry potter he’d point out a flaw in the editing and they’d get upset that “he’s reminding us the movie is fictional”. While I enjoyed the educational moments, they didn’t. It was interesting to see the needs different people have and how something that is helpful to one person can be harmful to another.
Minyan Man wrote:
grobert93 wrote:
…This is what I have been struggling to live by since I went on a mission. The mission showed me how toxic my childhood was despite doing all the “right” things (baptism, priesthood, Eagle Scout, seminary, mission). Coming home from my mission I fell back into the toxic trap and went off to college after a year. I am now married to someone who was also in a toxic family environment and did not have the gospel support. So having such a different perspective in my new marriage helps me to realize that just because I had all the blessings of the gospel doesn’t mean I was going to feel happy.
grobert93, I would be interested to hear what changes you & your wife will make to help your lives be happier.
My brother (who is not a member) and I have talked about the changes we consciously made to make our lives & our “family life” better.
This isn’t presented as a “one solution” fits all. For example, we were raised in the ’50 & ’60 in the Midwest. Ancient history, I know.
Your situation may be different.
For example,
– We decided to be open with our affection for our children & (now) their families. Lots of hugs, kisses & “I love you’s”
– We openly talk about issues in our lives & ask for suggestions or opinions.
– We freely admit that we don’t have all the answers or that we are not perfect or that we need help.
Well, a lot of what we have chosen to do is based off of what we wish we grew up doing. Open communication. Having safe space to vent and to calm down if anxious. Every voice is valid. Emotions are valid. A lot of accepting of the reality of being imperfect. Not assigning topics as taboo such as sexual concerns, conflicting gospel interests, etc. Challenging each other to owe up to our responsibility as adults. Etc.
Some more unique things we try to live by include not assigning expectations based on gender or culture. We openly share responsibilities and treat our marriage as if both of us were critical. No “mom works in the kitchen, dad works in the garage” stuff. And no “mom takes care of the kids and dad goes to work” either. These expectations are harmful to us and we avoid them. if we don’t feel up to going to church, we don’t go and we find something to help our emotions feel relaxed. Etc
DarkJedi wrote:
I believe I recall several GAs blaming Satan for stuff just last weekend. Much of our story is a story of victimization (well, not mine, I’m not of Utah pioneer heritage but I hear it all the time). I think some church leaders and many church members foster the victimization/blame mentality.
I’ve noticed the trend that when a prayer is answered it is treated like a miracle from God and seen as a sacred sign. But when it is not, either there is blame to be shared or a “God is teaching us, we will get the answer someday” answer. Either way, it paints the church/God as innocent always and us as the ones that need to change.
rrosskopf wrote:
dande48 wrote:What if the “gospel” still leaves you feeling hungry?
Does the gift of God seem too meager for you?
“From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.” – John 6:66-70
The church isn’t for everyone. The church Jesus established is not equal to the LDS church today. It may have the priesthood and teach the gospel and perform the ordinances, but as former President Utchdorf himself said in conference, the restoration of the gospel is still happening. The church is still growing, still changing and becoming more pure. In the meantime, not everyone who attends church will find peace or satisfaction here. Which is why Elder Bednar gave a talk on home-centric gospel learning. We cannot expect the church to satisfy our needs. We cannot expect the church to “feed us until we are full”.
LadyofRadiantJoy wrote:
The way we talk about it at church it is taken to mean that success is sons going on missions, children marrying in temples, staying active, serving in callings and paying tithing and all that stuff. Yet, you can raise children who do all of that stuff and have bad relationships with your children. Parents can raise children to be stoically faithful all their lives, while being abusive parents. No one wants to talk about that because only “righteous” parents can raise children so faithful. I have known people at church who experienced child abuse but then say, “but hey, at least all of us kids had the gospel and went on children” which totally minimizes the very real pain they experienced. It’s really sad.
This is what I have been struggling to live by since I went on a mission. The mission showed me how toxic my childhood was despite doing all the “right” things (baptism, priesthood, Eagle Scout, seminary, mission). Coming home from my mission I fell back into the toxic trap and went off to college after a year. I am now married to someone who was also in a toxic family environment and did not have the gospel support. So having such a different perspective in my new marriage helps me to realize that just because I had all the blessings of the gospel doesn’t mean I was going to feel happy.
rrosskopf wrote:
grobert93 wrote:
The garments are not comfortable for everyone. I know someone who has a medical condition where she sweats with physical contact due to certain materials. She tried several garment types and each one creates a reaction to her skin. She found it better to avoid garments unless she has something underneath them, etc. IMO (and having read opinions on this forum too), garments are a symbolic representation of covenants we’ve made in the temple, other than that they are just uncomfortable underwear.
Did you know that you can have them custom made? I have a couple of pair that they custom made for me.
Including the material used, the dyes used to color it white, the fabric thickness and even removing the symbolism (due to it’s raised physical appearance) ? While I am grateful for flexibility with garment options (especially for those serving in the military for in a wheelchair for example), it’s the act of a thin and not-well designed under garment brushing against her skin that is the problem. Similar concept to jumping in a pool with a shirt on, then coming out and putting a dry shirt over the wet one.
DarkJedi wrote:
rrosskopf wrote:
May I point out that technically, “fullness” just means satisfyingly full? When one is full, they are no longer hungry, but they could still eat more.
I totally agree. In the context of the restoration, having the fullness of the gospel apparently does not mean that the restoration is finished. For me this is one of many paradoxes.
And this, coupled with a few conference talks, has taught me to accept that perhaps the church is not “true” yet, but is progressing toward becoming true eventually.
rrosskopf wrote:
HSAB wrote:
I put on the shorts and I feel disgusting, fat and ugly. I also feel like a boy.
It’s probably already been mentioned, but the original garment was more like a dress. Yet I don’t believe Adam felt like a girl. It just depends on one’s cultural programming.Ultimately, you are a Latter Day Saint, and your garments identify you as such. You should not be ashamed. The garments are a gift from God. Wear then with grattitude.
The garments are not comfortable for everyone. I know someone who has a medical condition where she sweats with physical contact due to certain materials. She tried several garment types and each one creates a reaction to her skin. She found it better to avoid garments unless she has something underneath them, etc. IMO (and having read opinions on this forum too), garments are a symbolic representation of covenants we’ve made in the temple, other than that they are just uncomfortable underwear.
AmyJ wrote:
grobert93 wrote:
I’ve been trying to figure out where and how I emotionally became tangled up in this mess of my fault for other’s choices, and I realized some quotes we read on the mission and were told were inspired for us may have caused them.“I frequently say to missionaries in the field, ‘You make or break your mission every morning of your life. You tell me how those morning hours go from 6:30 a.m. until you are on the street in your mission, whatever time it is; you tell me how those hours go, and I will tell you how your day will go, I will tell you how your month will go, I will tell you how your year will go and how your mission and your life will go’” (Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, seminar for new mission presidents, June 26, 2011).
I look at obedience these days as “getting your head in the game” whatever the game is. For example, If you want to become good at meditation and introspection, it means breaking down that desire to into core concepts and finding the time to work towards that. But it is very hard (if not impossible) to be a deep meditation guru without learning about mindfulness, or practicing meditation, or finding the environment(s) that work for you to become introspective.
As a missionary, how those hours were spent can tell you where the missionary’s head was – whether that missionary was serving others, contacting people, or not.
Did the missionary develop better habits because they were out in the field with others who could teach and inspire them?Ultimately, the greatest missionary successes will not be the conversions – unless it is the repentance/conversion of the missionary themselves. One of the greatest successes I saw on my mission was a companion who started to change how she managed and prioritized her time – she became more punctual, and started getting up in the morning on time. She finally got what we had been trying to tell her since day 1 in the mission field (and perhaps what countless others before us had been trying to point out to her).
grobert93 wrote:
This, coupled with so many other apostles advising on obedience brings blessings and it’s no wonder I’ve convinced myself if I’m not obedience and live up to the standards I’ve covenanted to, anything that happens against my hope is my fault.
Is your “fault”, or an opportunity to extend yourself personal grace to accept where you are, move on to make changes and do better?
I agree with you that if I wanted to get my “head in the game” I need to isolate step by step choices in order to improve my results. I think the problem is, when you don’t meet expectations, achieve goals or have your head “fully in the game”, blame and responsibility come in and the problem is identified, usually.
Having had anxiety while serving, and serving with several companions that struggled with various levels of emotional difficulty, I have personally learned that being perfectly punctual on the mission (and pressuring your companion to do so) was one of the least effective ways to have unity and get work done. This is based off of my own, unique experiences and is not applicable to every situation. But I learned that worrying about waking up 5 minutes later or taking an extra ten minutes personal study was not the end of the world and should not have been culturally defined as doctrinally losing blessings or accepting responsibility for any unfavorable events that day.
The problem I have is when we associated an imperfection (well meaning but failing to perfectly follow the morning schedule, for example) with an independent third party result. If I did not follow the morning schedule, then any appoints that would fall through or failed commitments would land on my hands. The idea that us missionaries controlled other’s choices was unhealthy and is a confusing mess for me to figure out. Yes, obedience brings blessings but is it the healthiest to tell an elder that their dropped baptism was due to their non-diligence to stay busy until 8pm?
It should be seen as an opportunity to improve, but my point is that I don’t think it’s fair or healthy to pressure missionaries to be obedient because their actions will affect other’s willingness to progress.
Also, while I agree that if you committed to serve a mission you’re promising to stay focused etc. However, I found that my physical body is not perfect and often I would need to take breaks (more than just a “p day” (which was usually stressful because it was the only day to get laundry and shopping done)) for an hour or two every few days. My closing to get a slushy on a summer day and just relaxing for 20 minutes as a missionary could be perceived as being apostate or disobedient, but for me I would view it as needing to relax and allow myself to refresh for the remainder of the day.
dande48 wrote:
Minyan Man wrote:
I would love to hear the rest of the story from the viewpoint of the Sister Missionaries.What would they say?
I imagine they beat themselves up pretty bad over it. “Not enough faith”, or “How could I be so stupid!”. Not that I agree with that assessment; we should be kind to ourselves. But in Church, we’re often taught, when things go well, it’s the providence of God. When things go wrong, it’s all our fault.
This harmed a lot of my testimony while I served my mission. I started to blame my own lack of faith or obedience for the actions my companions would take. If an investigator declined baptism, stopped reading the book of mormon or other such thing, I’d blame myself. I’ve been trying to figure out where and how I emotionally became tangled up in this mess of my fault for other’s choices, and I realized some quotes we read on the mission and were told were inspired for us may have caused them.
“I frequently say to missionaries in the field, ‘You make or break your mission every morning of your life. You tell me how those morning hours go from 6:30 a.m. until you are on the street in your mission, whatever time it is; you tell me how those hours go, and I will tell you how your day will go, I will tell you how your month will go, I will tell you how your year will go and how your mission and your life will go’” (Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, seminar for new mission presidents, June 26, 2011).
This, coupled with so many other apostles advising on obedience brings blessings and it’s no wonder I’ve convinced myself if I’m not obedience and live up to the standards I’ve covenanted to, anything that happens against my hope is my fault.
Ebowalker wrote:
In my opinion, this recent announcement has little to do with humility or recognition and everything to do with legal protection. It would not be difficult for someone to accuse the church of singling out and discriminating against a recognized group of people. I’m not sure about US laws, but here in Canada no one felt comfortable with the original policy. I doubt it was ever implemented here, if it was I’d be joined with many others to condemn it. SSM is the norm here and has been for almost 15 years. I always felt it was a cultural policy and the Church is slowly realizing that local culture does not work internationally.
Interestingly enough, the US only recently made gay marriage legal, so the church had quite a long time of legal protection in the US considering.
felixfabulous wrote:
The 189th Annual General Conference was kind of a mixed bag for me. I love the traditions, getting together with family and being with my family for the Priesthood Session. I love feeling like part of the group and was really happy the November 2015 policy changed. There were a few talks I enjoyed, Elder Stevenson in Priesthood Session (loved the sports stuff), Elder McKay and Sister Eubank.I had a really hard time with what I heard from the First Presidency, Oaks and Nelson mainly. It seemed like two steps back to the fear-based push to obedience that I had hoped we were moving away from. Repent now before it’s too late. It seems like we’re moving back to a push for perfection, with the atonement as an insurance policy and that grace is being pushed to the back seat again. That message does not resonate with me. I believe that no one really knows what happens when we die and religion should help us here and now, with a hope that there is something after. But, to live your whole life based on a certitude of preparing for the world to come seems like such a waste. Anyone else react this way? Give me hope to hang on!
Having had personal struggles with not only the situation you described but also my doubts concerning the validity of the church as a “True” restored organization considering the history of it’s evolution, I can see where the unhappy and uncomfortable reaction is coming from.
I personally found some of the apostle’s talks to resonate well with me, however. The most obvious two for me were Holland and Bednar. Holland reminded us of the importance of the purpose of the Sacrament, and even chastised us for spending too much time on announcements and other ward culture distractions. Bednar was most surprising to me because he’s trying to indicate a clear distinction between the church (as an organization led by imperfect men) and the gospel (given to us by the Lord). He want us to spend more time learning, receiving revelation and coming to our own understanding of the gospel at home, instead of at church.
While this may not solve some issues such as the policy change damage, for me it’s showing the reality of the imperfections of the church, which despite what everyone seems to think, has not been fully restored to it’s “perfect state” yet (Utchdorf gave a talk on this very concept, that the church isn’t finished yet). If the church is “becoming perfect” through the gospel, then the gospel must be separate from the church and thus, my acceptance of the reality of what we see today.
I hope this makes sense. I’m still pondering what it all means, but I have hope now. For the first time in months, I feel hope that somehow everything will make more sense and the unfair will be resolved.
