[Groundhog]

Roy wrote:

Groundhog wrote:

But I did hold it in my heart against her. So the answer I found, the way forward for me, was finally, to forgive. It seemed so silly. WHat was there to forgive? Even though she doesn’t need it, it was for me. I needed to let it go, but not in a way where I just “forgot about it” or “ignored it.” I had to acknowledge it, and then say, I forgive you (again, even though she didn’t need it). And then forget anything that was destructive to my own thoughts. It wasn’t easy. But knowing that I had the power of the Atonement at least let me have the strength to get on that road.

I sometimes feel that we link forgiveness and wrongdoing too closely. After the stillbirth of my daughter I felt like I had let my family down and I yearned for forgiveness. Yet, I hadn’t done anything wrong and never did have the power to protect my family from every negative outcome. I needed to forgive myself and that was complicated in part by the idea that forgiveness/repentance was for wrongdoing. I was excited by the concept of forgiveness and salvation in mainstream protestant churches because the individual can be forgiven essentially for their fallen state (a fallen state that was not their fault to begin with and that they will continue in even after being forgiven). I think of it like Jesus saying unto his father, “Forgive them, for they are merely human.”

IOW, if calling it forgiveness helps in your process of letting it go then more power too you. The word forgiveness can be powerful and has many facets. I am happy that you are having a measure of success getting past this obstacle and are feeling more free.

Yes that’s a very interesting concept. That forgiveness may not necessarily be about wrongdoing. I’ve never thought about it that way before. I suspect that there are going to be even harder things down the line that life will throw at me that I will need to call upon that power again.

[Groundhog]

mfree6464 wrote:

I was listening to a podcast by John Dehlin recently and, as many of you may know, he did his Masters research and thesis on OCD. I found that much of what he shared applied to me and the suffering I experienced when I first started this thread with regard to handling my wife’s sexual past. I am by no means a professional so please don’t take my words as gospel (pun intended.) The words I am about to share are my opinions based on the understanding I received after listening to someone I consider to be a professional in the realm of OCD. If you are suffering from OCD in any of its many forms you should seek professional help.

That said, I am hopeful that perhaps some of the information I am about to share will help others understand what is happening to them when they find themselves suffering over the sexual past of their significant other. I am also hopeful that those who haven’t suffered in this way will be able to better understand what I was going through when I first started this thread and why I felt the way I did.

Here is my understanding after listening to this professional:

For those who are unaware, OCD stands for obsessive compulsive disorder and obviously has two components: an obsessive part and a compulsive part. The compulsive part is the action one takes to try to remediate whatever it is one is obsessing over. Example: If you obsess about cleanliness then you might compulsively wash your hands. If you obsess about safety then you might obsessively check to make sure your door is locked before you leave. If you obsess about being righteous you might obsessively confess to your bishop over things that don’t merit confession (scrupulosity.)

Rumination (deeply thinking about something) happens to be one of the many compulsive behaviors that may be manifested by those who suffer from OCD. When I first visited with a counselor over this issue the first thing he said to me was, “You are really ruminating over this.” Again, I have not been professionally diagnosed but I believe that when I first posted back in early 2016 I was suffering, for the first time in my life, from OCD. The obsessive component was my wife’s past. The compulsive component was rumination. I could not stop thinking about her past. Thinking about my wife being with someone else in an intimate way is, for me, very painful. Thus, I was in constant pain.

Another thing I learned was that OCD attacks the things that are most important to us. I am not a neat freak so OCD never reared it’s ugly head for me in this way. I am not naturally paranoid (we regularly leave our doors unlocked for days at a time) so safety and lock checking never were a target for my OCD. I used to think I suffered from scrupulosity in my youth but after gaining more insight into what that actually looks like I no longer believe that. I think I was just a kid who was “scared straight” by the church and greatly feared going to hell so I white-knuckled my way with will power through my teens not getting into much trouble at all. But when my wife opened up to me about her past I found myself thrust into this world of suffering that I did not know existed. She is everything to me and the OCD was exploiting that. My suffering is all well-documented on this thread so I won’t go into further detail than that. But it was real. It was extremely painful. And I could not find a way out.

When I first posted here I was seeking a safe place to talk. I had posted in one other location prior to this and was largely told that I needed to forgive and forget. I was told that I was disrespecting the Atonement. I was told I lacked faith. I was told that I was judgmental. I was told my wife deserved better than me. Just as it would not be helpful to tell an OCD sufferer that one hand-washing is enough and that 8 washings is crazy. Similarly, telling me that I was disrespecting Christ’s Atonement only added to my suffering. StayLDS is a unique community. I love that one can discuss church issues here without vitriol. It seems like this is where the grown-ups hang out. And for the most part, my post has been met with maturity and understanding. So thank you for that. That said, I know how hard it is to truly understand each other sometimes so hopefully this information will help bring some clarity to those who were puzzled by my experience.

I am so thankful for your post. It was one of the few places (in a topic already with few posts on the internet) that spoke directly to me. So many things you’ve said applied to what I was feeling. I too posted about this in one other place and I pretty much was told the same things you were. It made me feel worse because even looking from the outside in, I would have said the same things those people did. So why couldn’t it get out of my mind? And your thoughts on OCD, while I don’t believe i have it, sound a lot like what I went through. I became obsessed with chasing each thread of thought to their logical conclusion and there was just two conclusions I could not get over no matter how hard I tried to “logic” past them. I really felt like my own brain would end me, or the relationship. In fact, I began thinking a lot about ending the relationship for both our sakes. I think ironically that was where the actual healing began because even if I ended the relationship, I didn’t want to end it on a sour note. I wanted to end things amicably and on good terms. That’s where I was led to forgiveness.

But yes, I cannot overstate that I felt a kinship with you despite how vastly different our situations are. I suspect my own obsession with the topic was akin to something like a culture shock. I just… it just blew my mind. My expectations were completely lambasted and I felt this incredible sense of disappointment and lost. Even now I am not so sure why I was in that state of mind. And even now, weeks later, occasionally it will return. Not as intense or as deep as it used to be though if I dwell on it I can feel the old hooks returning. But it comes in and out. Definitely not every day like it used to be (or rather ever hour).

Anyway, I wonder if in two more years someone else will discover this again.

[Groundhog]

Heber13 wrote:

Roy wrote:

Groundhog wrote:

It’s more of what you said when you talked to your counselor, the idea that my gf could be forever bonded to other people in a sacred way when it shouldn’t be that way. I just find it disturbing to dwell on that thought, that even in the eternities there would be other people who know my wife intimately.

I know that it is easier said than done but I can’t help but think that it doesn’t have to be that way. The idea that someone that had an intimate moment with your gf/wife would be forever bonded to her is not doctrinal.

I agree with Roy on this. It does seem from your posts that you are placing a certain meaning on the sacred nature of things, understandably from the teachings we receive in the church and in our families.

But as Roy said…it doesn’t mean it has to be that way or that is all that matters.

It is either something from the past you cling to and let it bother you, or it is not and you let it go. There may have been other things that were sacred to you once, but in learning new things, you let it go and it doesn’t bother you anymore. We often do that. Especially when they are no big deal to us. This one, however, keeps coming back and is a hard one for you. That doesn’t mean there is something wrong with you, simply that this one sticks…it is there to be wrestled with…and it is difficult. We all discard stuff that is no big deal easily…but it is the ones that stick that cause us to struggle and grow by working through them. They are the ones we learn the most from.

Don’t look at it as something is wrong with you because it is difficult. Just embrace it as something difficult for you. It just is. Now what will you choose to do about it?

If you can let it go, you would be good to do so.

If you can’t, you might consider that now before you move to marry her, so that if you do marry her, you know if you can give her your whole heart and move forward and not keep bringing it up, or if you just can’t and better to end things now.

There is no right or wrong, no black or white. There simply is your choice.

I know situations are all very different, and I don’t intend to dismiss your thoughts or struggles with it. Just simply want to point out it doesn’t have to be that way about it being so sacred that there are no options ever, it is what you choose to do with it. YOU are placing that definition on it and that meaning on the sacred nature, and it stays with you until you wrestle with that and let it go or put it in perspective with everything else to rationally process it.

I am divorced and remarried. My wife was divorced and remarried to me. If your logic holds true as a universal eternal truth about the nature of sacred things, we are condemned to never have our sacred marriage together. You might say “that is different” …but it is not any more different than your situation from cnsl1 or any other. All are different. But what is the same? The idea that we create what is sacred in our hearts…and individual circumstances vary and we adapt to them. There are no absolutes.

Do you stay committed to ideas from past actions, or do you choose to move ahead and truly love going forward? That can determine what is sacred to you or not.

Quote:

“But the human spirit is resilient. God made us so. He gave us the ability to forgive. To leave our past behind. To look forward instead of back.”

“Ultimately, to get better, I simply made a choice.”

― Elizabeth Smart, My Story

Situations are different, but principles are the same. Is Elizabeth Smart forever damaged as a person and never to have anything sacred in her life? There are too many examples out there to refute such thinking. We are all different. We are all damaged. We are all sinners. We are all sacred sons and daughters of God.

Your thoughts on the meaning of the past does not need to be more powerful than actions moving forward to love and let go. Faith and love and the Atonement overcome anything in the past.

It sounds to me from your posts, groundhog, you know these things and have read it and heard it all before. So how do you let it go? How do you keep it from bothering you? How do you stop thinking and worrying?

I think you simply start today doing it. You can’t always think about how you will start to not let it bother you, you can’t always think it through. You sometimes just have faith and do it, and then the thoughts fall into perspective.

Realize the thoughts that come to you can be entertained or dismissed. They may keep coming back, but you can ignore them if you want. In time, the more often we dismiss the things that hold us back…the more we are focusing on the now and the future to make things as we want them to be. Many times, once we get our mind on the good things looking head, the past becomes less worrisome to us, and like other things that are no big deal to you, this becomes another one of those.

The Maori Proverb states:

Quote:

Turn your face to the sun and the shadows fall behind you.

That is sacred. Love is sacred. Sex is just an earthly bodily thing…but love is what is sacred and eternal. Love can overcome the past thoughts that hold us back. So start today, and just keep moving forward with love in your heart.

Choose your love, and love your choice.

Thank you everyone, and thank you Heber13.

I think I have found my way forward. For the longest time, I said that I just needed to get over it, that my gf did not do anything wrong to me, and that it all rested on me. And it did, but it glossed over and ignored a very fundamental fact that I didn’t admit because my gf did nothing wrong. I glossed over that I still held her past against her. I was still choosing to be offended, choosing to let it be a stumbling block. How dare she take something that I wasn’t even able to choose for myself? Even while telling her that I didn’t hold it against her. It was a lie, because to think otherwise really made me feel crappy, like a villain. I could never be that person, the person who got caught up on one tiny little thing that wasn’t a big deal. but here I was, being that exact person, so because it didn’t logically make sense to me, I just glossed over it.

But I did hold it in my heart against her. So the answer I found, the way forward for me, was finally, to forgive. It seemed so silly. WHat was there to forgive? Even though she doesn’t need it, it was for me. I needed to let it go, but not in a way where I just “forgot about it” or “ignored it.” I had to acknowledge it, and then say, I forgive you (again, even though she didn’t need it). And then forget anything that was destructive to my own thoughts. It wasn’t easy. But knowing that I had the power of the Atonement at least let me have the strength to get on that road.

I can say that I feel lighter. It certainly doesn’t rack my brain anymore. It’s a work in progress but I just continually forget the destructive, dismiss the negative.

This was my answer. I don’t know how helpful it is for anyone else. But I just wanted to let everyone know.

[Groundhog]

Cnsl1 wrote:

I have lots of thoughts and a fair amount of experience on this topic.. I don’t know if I can distill them into anything useful for you, but I’ll try. First, groundhog, it would probably be best to start a new thread..

Yeah, I debated about starting a new thread, but this topic doesn’t seem common enough for me to feel like it warranted a new thread. But I’d love to hear all your thoughts!

[Groundhog]

mfree6464 wrote:

Hi Groundhog,

Sorry to hear you are struggling with this difficult issue. A couple thoughts came to mind after reading your post. First, I am glad I married my wife and would do it all over again given the opportunity. She is the one for me and this issue has never changed my feelings in that regard, not in the least. As you consider marriage with your girlfriend, I would personally advise that you not let issues like this get in the way. I understand each situation is different, but my experience tells me it would be a mistake to let a potential marriage partner get away over something like this.

Second (and I think this is a major distinction between my situation and yours), my wife’s issues came to light AFTER nearly 15 years of marriage. Additionally, I was lied to before getting married and led to believe that I was her first when I really wasn’t. As I think I have said before, I don’t think I would have even written this post if she had been upfront with me from the get-go. I spent 15 years believing we had saved certain things for each other sexually and then not only did I lose that, but I learned that it was never true from the beginning. I think this compounded my suffering immensely.

If you are still looking for more help I would google the term “Retroactive Jealousy.” I have learned that this is not a Mormon issue or even a religious issue necessarily. Many people suffer as you find yourself suffering now and you are not alone. I personally hate the term “jealousy” as it relates to this issue but this seems to be the term most people apply to it.

As for me, I continue to improve. As I said a couple years back, life has provided distractions (however challenging they may be) and it continues to do so. When life finally settles down these issues may very well bubble back up but for now I have been able to go a few days without those thoughts coming to mind when before they were nearly incessant. When the thoughts do arise they are manageable. I don’t enjoy them, but I am able to suppress and manage them to a large extent. It has also been a couple years since the issue has brought me to tears so there is progress!

Hang in there and feel free to send me a private message if you have any questions.

Best

Yeah, I recognize that yours was a betrayal and that is a much deeper impact, which leads me to believe that your love is much deeper than mine (well, after you have years of experience haha).

For me, I’m not jealous. I don’t wish I did things differently as a youth because I did them for myself and for God. Sure, maybe I wish I did a little more experimentation, but I know myself to know that anything more wouldn’t have been me or been right for me. So no, I’m not jealous. It’s more of what you said when you talked to your counselor, the idea that my gf could be forever bonded to other people in a sacred way when it shouldn’t be that way. I just find it disturbing to dwell on that thought, that even in the eternities there would be other people who know my wife intimately. I feel like most things could be done away with or corrected, but this thing that’s supposed to be perfect will never be. Something that’s the biggest deal for an lds kid is imperfect, and knowing my nature, its a struggle haha.

As for your other quote, my gf regrets her actions, but at the same time she is at peace with it. They do not come up in her mind at all. It is something that happened, and may actually have been necessary to be where she is at today or who she is today. But yeah, we will have to talk more about sex and our expectations before marriage.

[Groundhog]

LDS_Scoutmaster wrote:

Groundhog wrote:

My gf has been completely open, forthcoming, and honest and I appreciate that. It must have been extremely difficult for her. We’re in love, compatible, and believe we can share a future together so I can say I’d marry her.

It sounds like you have a good communication established with your gf. I would recommend letting that open and talk with her about this too. It can be incredibly difficult and raw.

Groundhog wrote:

I’m not sure why writing this. It’s been years since the last post on this thread. I guess its cathartic to read exactly someone else who felt the same way, who has struggled with it the same way, and thus, scary at the same time.

I’m glad you commented, otherwise I probably wouldn’t have read it.

I’m in the same boat, and can say I’ve worked through it.

I don’t have a magic formula to give you, wish I did, but everyone is different. I have to admit a big part of it was my own maturity, but all those ‘reasons’ came down to jealousy, insecurity, and a whole host of other emotions all wrapped up into one big ball of crap.

I can say that it does get better with time, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. It doesn’t have to be a long and difficult path. The big part for me was not only realizing that I had my own past that she had to deal with but whatever feelings she may have felt for anyone else in the past I knew how she felt and feels about me now. Life has been full of ups and downs and our relationship has had its Ebbs and flows. during the ebbs, we wish for more flow. And during the flow we don’t realize the coming ebb.

I don’t know if my explanation has been much of a comfort in the path true getting back to a healthy balance Within yourself regarding a partner’s heart and mind. but all I can say is it does get better and you just get to a point where it doesn’t matter anymore. And then you can just love the person in the moment you are in.

I really do think you’re right about the insecurity part. And perhaps jealousy. I’m not jealous of previous men and I have no desire to change my gf’s past. It made her what she is today and she has moved past it. In fact, she says she doesn’t even think about it, which I am glad because I don’t want that as a burden for her. That makes this topic tricky because bringing it up to her means dragging her past back up. It’s just a discomforting thought to know my gf will be linked to other men for eternity because of the nature of the sin? No matter what, that cannot be erased. Even the atonement doesn’t change that, though who knows what happens. I know this sounds silly in my head lol and perhaps the mental images are doing more damage than anything else.

I do thank you for your words. It’s good to know that there is that light. And I believe you. In that eventually, life will overwhelm this. Or that I just mature and “get over it”.

[Groundhog]

nibbler wrote:

Groundhog wrote:

I’ve heard all the advice. I know the scriptures. I know the doctrine. I know its a DUMB thing to get hung up on. I feel so stupid for having it circle my head so much.

Don’t be too hard on yourself, it’s not dumb, it’s normal. Many people feel the same way. It’s not an easy thing to process and it’s okay when things take time.

I’ve thought about it some, not nearly enough. I’ll give some comments, feel free to correct me and help me gain perspective.

I think one contributing factor is that people want to feel like they are special in the eyes of someone that is special to them. Maybe us biological creatures have become hardwired to view sex as something that solidifies that specialness.

Watching a movie with your significant other. They watch movies with other people, how are we special?

Going out to a restaurant. They go out to eat with other people, how are we special?

Texting and touching base throughout the day. They do that with all their friends, how are we special?

A kiss. Many people have kissed other people, how are we special?

And eventually we land on sex. Something very intimate between two people, especially for a species evolved to be monogamous. If a partner has a sexual history it could leave one asking, how are we special? Back to the drawing board.

Maybe it helps strengthen relationships to have unique shared experiences?

If I’m way off base it wouldn’t be the first time. Feel free to correct or ignore.

oops, I didn’t realize my post actually went through.

Yeah, the last part you mentioned is probably a big contributing factor. A lot of other things are mundane, but sex and things reserved for marriage aren’t. I wouldn’t say I feel less special, but it’s a disruption of expectations. And that’s probably a product of upbringing. I really think the expectations set by the church has a lot to do with it, not that I believe that’s wrong. It’s just a jolt of reality that I didn’t expect and am now struggling with.

[Groundhog]

It’s weird to read mfree’s post because they feel almost exactly like my thoughts going through my head right now. there’s been so many instances where what mfree typed is something that went through my head exactly. I feel like this topic comes back up every couple of years.

But I’ve been thinking about this long and often enough that I finally googled to see if anybody was dealing with what I was dealing with. I’ve asked people, and most of the time I get the same advice, advice that has been shared here too in this thread. And to be honest, it’s advice I would give to someone else if the roles were reversed. So why is it so hard then to get this out of my head? I know the right answer, yet somehow it’s not connecting.

Mfree’s situation mirror mine somewhat, only I’m not married, or even engaged yet. But I’ve found out things recently. My gf has been completely open, forthcoming, and honest and I appreciate that. It must have been extremely difficult for her. We’re in love, compatible, and believe we can share a future together so I can say I’d marry her. Thinking about everything, there’s no reason I wouldn’t. And yet I know if I move forward this will be something that might stick around for a long time. Like mfree, but maybe not to his extent, I love my gf. She’s the best thing that’s happened to me. Ironically, the more I love her, the more it also hurts. It scares me to know that mfree was still dealing with it 2 years after he learned about it and even with other things going on. It feels like its a snapshot of what my future might be and to think that I might learn about more stuff later also scares me.

I’ve heard all the advice. I know the scriptures. I know the doctrine. I know its a DUMB thing to get hung up on. I feel so stupid for having it circle my head so much. Everything from the possession thing to the culture thing I’ve heard and understood. There are so much bigger problems in the world right now. I suppose it’s because of our expectations and our upbringing. To believe and have lived so much the law of chastity and then to suddenly realize that most of the rest of the church doesn’t care? To also know, like mfree said, that no matter what happens, my gf will always be connected in a sacred way to someone else for the rest of eternity. Maybe it’s pride and ego. But I’ve rationalized everything else away EXCEPT for that last part.

I’m not sure why I’m writing this. It’s been years since the last post on this thread. I guess its cathartic to read exactly someone else who felt the same way, who has struggled with it the same way, and thus, scary at the same time. I can’t go backwards, but I know going forwards is gonna suck in its own way. I can only pray and hope that I find something within myself or some piece of logic that hasn’t been found yet to help me process everything. I’ve hoped that I can see the bigger picture and that things heal with time. Which makes mfree’s updates concerning. But we are not the same person, despite how similar things have been in this specific situation. The only thing I can do is forge my own path

[Author]

Posts