[Grover]

Thank you everyone for your comments!! You have given me a lot to think about.

Just one comment I’d like to make. One of the things that is really hard about posting anything here (or anywhere) is trying to keep your emotions and irrational feelings out of posts so you don’t say anything that is funky just because you are hurting. One of my faults is that I always feel that the whole world (of the church) is against me so I usually make generalizations because of it. Of course, there are always exceptions and not everyone, or even most, are like this or that. It’s really nice to read people talking about the issues rather than the right or wrong with how people see things (in the spur of the moment as they write a post). I’m pretty sure a lot of posts are written because of reaching a breaking point. I know that is what made me write my first post . I’m glad for the spirit of this site. It makes me have faith

Cheers

[Grover]

Hi thalmar,

I recognize a lot of things that you have written about from my own experiences. I’m sorry that everything is so complicated and disheartening for you. I find there are no right or wrong answers to such things, there are just difficult choices to make. Often in such complicated circumstances there are always positive and negatives to each choice. It is up to you to decide which group of positives and negatives will give the best possible outcome for you and your family for now and/or for the future.

I’m probably not the best person to give advice because it usually goes against the grain. I can’t suggest to you what YOU should do, but I can tell you what I would do in your situation. In fear of being unpopular, here goes: I would take a break. Many people have advised me not to do this, even on this site, but the situation for me would make me feel it is best to take a break from church and extended family so I can focus on the health and happiness of my immediate family and myself. It would not be about taking a break from God or my beliefs and values, but the environment and pressure of church and extended family. I feel that we depend too much on church in our lives. Some people allow church life to consume them. The church (the organization) should be a part of our life, yes, but not our whole life. The church teaches but we are the ones who live it. This is especially so when we realise our values and beliefs are our own, not the church’s. If we take a break, we don’t loose who we are; a break enables us to find our path again. The church itself uses this technique. Members are put on probation when they have hit a crisis point with breaking their covenants. Probation isn’t a punishment, though some would have you believe so, but it is a break from contributing and acting in the church so you can have the time and space you need to get back on your path again. People take a break from callings because they need to concentrate on their health. One time I had to take a ‘break’ from church for about nine months simply because where I lived took me an 8 hour round trip. Technically I would have been classed as inactive, but I wasn’t. I know of some people taking a break from their ward and going somewhere else for a little while.

The way I’ve always seen it is by asking myself – what is the most important responsibility I have, not just in the church, but in life? (God judges us on our life choices, not our church choices.) To me, the most important thing, is the health and happiness of my family and myself. So my priority is taking care of my family and myself. If I can’t do that properly because of the pressure and complications I’m facing at church and with extended family, I need to set aside those things. Not forever, but until I feel ready to deal with them. This too is a power that we have been given – to govern our own lives. My motherhood is more important than my ‘church-hood’. In fact, I believe by doing all that I can, putting the health and happiness of my family first, I am living the gospel and I am fulfilling the most important responsibility I have. We might be scared to act, to change, in fear that we will loose something, but remember that we are also accountable (to God and our family) if we don’t act, don’t change to better situations.

I have been in your type of situation and I must say that whatever you choose there will be positive consequences mixed with negative consequences. It’s not about trying to avoid the negative consequences, you can’t (and it is often the negative consequences that stop us from choosing) but its about deciding wisely which negative consequences that you can live with. In my story, I saved my second family (I remarried and had 2 more kids) from a life of negative encounters with my ex-husband, but I had to sacrifice by living in a different country than my oldest two children. They have always had a choice to live with me, but have never chosen to. It’s bitter-sweet, life has never been so good for me and my family, but I would have liked to have shared it with my other two children. Every once in a while I regret not being with my eldest two, I’ve felt so guilty over the years, sometimes I’ve even felt like God was punishing me, but if you asked me if it was the best decision for my second family, you betcha! .

I hope some of this will give you some comfort

Cheers

[Grover]

Daeruin wrote:

Welcome to the forums! Just a quick comment while I lay awake with tooth pain. I think SilentDawning may be referring to the cultural difficulties you may face in trying to return to church. Many people may view you as damaged or dangerous. You’ll have lots of hoops to jump through. It sounds like you are a pretty confident person, so maybe those things don’t bother you much. What is your family situation like? Do you have kids who are members?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You know, I don’t know whether people would call me unlucky or fortunate, but I don’t actually care about what other people think of me. 😮 I care about what I think of myself, of course. I have set a very high bar for myself and I am determined not to let myself down. Unfortunately, I then think a lot of other members would see me as dangerous. I didn’t used to be. Before I was very much a people pleaser, so I guess then I was perfect for the church. Over the years I’ve just grown up and allowed myself to become the true me rather than what I think I should be.

I’ve always found that friends in the church aren’t really real friends. They are really just associates. If I can’t be myself around them, then they are not friends – and really what church member can you really be yourself around? I’m a person that likes deep relationships and don’t care much for ‘polite chitchat’ relationships. I have a handful of really good friends – a couple in and a couple out of the church. Church members only call you when they want something, I find – to come over to do their home teaching, to get you to bring a cake, to get you to talk or doing something like move someones house, or come to an activity. Want, want want. I can’t recall anyone calling just to hang out, even when I was a people pleaser, there is always an ulterior motive, never a ‘just because’.

I think I’m a difficult woman to befriend – I’m strong and some might say powerful (or maybe overbearing…lol). I’m a completely different women than the regular at church. I hate sewing, cooking, crafting, talking about kids (even though I have four), singing, decorating, just about everything they do at Enrichment – gooshy mushy stuff…lol. Give me sport – I’m a player not a watcher -, Big Bang, Gothic art, tap dancing, farming and ice sculpture with a chainsaw. Being different in the church is difficult, but for a personality type like me it is easy, because I just don’t care 😯

Sorry for your tooth pain. As a side note and with all medical cautions considered: just a tip I got from a pharmacist – (and of course I’m not a doctor! but…) he told me to get some Ibuprofen, an inflammatory drug you can buy at the supermarket for headaches and pain etc. You mash a tablet up and apply it directly to the area, whether in the tooth or around it, for good pain relief. I’ve done it and it works really well. Same for my husband. It doesn’t taste very nice…lol, but your spit helps it to cake. I’ve found it targets the area faster.

Thanks for your comment!

Cheers

[Grover]

scthomas34 wrote:

“Now I feel that I’m looking past the church, so to speak, and am looking for a more peaceful, natural and connected way to live. I guess, I’m having trouble with the whole church organization and culture, how the church views God and the gospel, and especially how members view and treat each other. I don’t want to be a part of an organization when I completely disapprove of its beliefs, methods and the delivery of teachings.”

Questions, do you feel the spirit or no when you are participating in ordinances? I have posted on here for a number of weeks. I feel that sometimes people put themselves in a box of this is what Mormons do on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, etc. I feel connected on Sunday in worship, and I love connecting to God on Sunday. However, I am not a typically Mormon and I do not have an outlook like many. I am out foraging weeds that are healthy and trying new recipes several days a week and connecting with nature in a way that is very personal to me. I like to do things for other people as well not because the church says do service to gain converts, although I wouldn’t mind that either, but because there are so many problems people do not give a flip about and so many people want to just sit on the couch and eat chips and watch their show and life is just peachy. I feel that a big problem personally comes when any society swings way too conservative or way too liberal. Because almost all church members are staunch conservatives-I will address this one; I feel that conservatisim for so many has become “why do I have to help them, they got themselves into their mess, they can get themselves out! Why do I need to care. am I my brothers keeper?” And often the business competition models get dragged into church and then church members can end up competing for who knows what. There are many good mormons who are horrible christians. Just curious of what bothers you about church organization? Can the church and the gospel be true even when the organization at some levels needs to be modified or can the ordinances still be true? I think they can. Let me know your take.

You ask some very interesting questions.

You know, the first one, about feeling the spirit, has been on my mind a little lately. I’ve been questioning myself if I actually feel the spirit when my heart is far from the church and questioning the gospel. I guess, unfortunately, I’m starting to believe that feeling the spirit is very subjective. I can feel the spirit when I want to. It usually happens when I’m in the act of inner reflection or sensory. This happens for me when I feel sentimental about something such as my children hugging me, when I feel awe about something such as watching the Northern Lights, or when I feel inspired about something such as a TED talk. And I’m feeling it now because of my own introspection. This feeling I can have, when I want it, how strong I want it and how inspiring I want it, all depends on my state of mind and heart – and it has not a ‘religious only’ dependancy. This feeling has different names for different people, in the church we call it the Spirit. Whether I’m inside or outside the church I can feel it however much I want. The church provides more opportunities to feel it just because the focus of the church IS to feel it. But really, it is all about how I think of things whether I feel it or not. I can have a fantastic spiritual experience just marveling at the magnificence of a tree – and it is the same feeling as I have in the church. So, I don’t think the Spirit is ‘religious’, I think it is a human condition that we all have the power to experience. I don’t think it comes from anywhere but is awakened or summoned inside of us. My ideas on the Spirit are not completely realised but I’m beginning to think it is not a magical thing that increases the more you have faith in God. I haven’t explored questions or ideas about the Holy Ghost yet, the spiritual being.

I too share your connection with nature and I wished that the gospel had a concern about nature and living in harmony with it, but everything is just centered around the well being of man’s soul. Conservation is not part of the gospel because literature was written hundreds of years ago by people who had no concern for nature and conservation. Unfortunately, what that means to me is that the gospel doesn’t seem to cover everything. The problem is that nature is part of the ‘natural world’ and we are supposed to remove ourselves from that, rejecting the ‘natural man’ within us. I breed smålensgås – Norwegian land geese – there are only 150 left in the world, they are on the red list for extinction – how can it not be a part of the gospel to ACTIVELY care for all creatures and plants. I’ve never seen the church care about animals, plants or nature. I guess taking care of nature is not a ‘gospel truth’, but I think it should be.

What bothers me about the church organization? That is a big question. I guess I’ll just mention a few things, but I plan to go into more personal detail in another section of the forum when I find the guts to post it . The church organization is limited by member’s knowledge and ability (we all know that). People who are not qualified make judgements on child sexual abuse, drugs, rape, domestic violence, etc, according to their own understanding. Some members advise the right thing according to law, many don’t. The fact that unskilled and uneducated people are put into positions that make judgement of a personal’s mental health and wellbeing is very disheartening for me. I have huge problems with the missionary program – the abuse of missionaries, members and investigators. I have problems with the way young women are taught about their ‘roles’ in a relationship and family. I also have problems with personal opinion of church leaders mixing with gospel truth, preached at the pulpits. I don’t like how members disapprove of diversity. The reason why I think I’m having issues with the church is because for years the church has been teaching me the gospel, but now I want the truth of the gospel.

I guess these are strong words. It is always hard to talk about these things without a large amount of reflection first. Some things I haven’t got around to thinking about fully yet to have an idea of what I really think, but I guess here are the basics.

Thanks for your comment! Would love to get your take on living with nature/naturally and the church.

Cheers

[Grover]

SilentDawning wrote:

Grover — my advice is to keep your membership in intact forever. I see very few benefits from resigning except maybe you won’t get intentional visits from missionaries and well-meaning priesthood leaders.

And it’s much harder to come back after you’ve resigned.

So, I suggest exploring your issues here and finding ways of staying. That is your best line of attack. It has worked for me and I am much happier than I used to be when I was TBM and suffering. Good luck, I hope our comments here help you find your own middle way.

I think this is very good advice, but in thinking on staying in the church while I work things out, it means I will still have a responsibility to the church if I do. Not in the way of callings but in the way of covenants. As a member, even an inactive member, I am bound by covenants I made at 17 and have renewed for the last 20 years. I’m very curious about myself as to what I would do or choose if I wasn’t bound to the church, if I was completely free of it to re-choose what I want for my life. I actually long for that ‘letting go’ feeling, being free to think and say things, being free to understand things and accept things in a different way.

I don’t know that it would be harder to come back to the church if I leave it. Firstly, the church is begging for members. But if you mean about receiving covenants again, it doesn’t take any longer than a first convert. But perhaps you I might have to overcome things like the word of wisdom and chastity on a return? For me personally there are no concerns there. I enjoy not drinking, smoking, tea/coffee, etc – I’m a health freak anyway. And my husband and I are fully committed to each other. If I left and wanted to go back someday I don’t think it would be a problem in regaining covenants. And really, there is no rush in getting them. ‘Good things come to those who wait’

Cheers

[Grover]

Thank you everyone for your comments and feedback. It’s been really good to hear from you all.

It’s funny, the missionaries dropped by the other day, and oh boy. They always want to know why we don’t got to church, but they never ask. So I told them flat out. But I also said that it is not up to them to fix our problems. Actually we had a really good talk. However, one would always rely on standard gospel answers like ‘the gospel is perfect and the church is not’, he is very young and naive though. When he did drop such lines I pointed out that sayings like that have become the ‘correct’ excuse to use now. I said I don’t see things how regular church members see things and thats what causes a lot of problems for the church. Anyway, they want to come back, of course. It seems they want weekly visits (I guess so they can write that they did something constructive down on their reporting.) Once a week, I think is too much. Once a month is ok. I have to get my husband to sms them about stopping all their daily phone calls and sms’ (that we don’t answer )…lol. Poor guys, but really it has only been two days since we last saw them! it’s not like we’re dating them…lol.

Cheers

[Author]

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