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Maybe Elder Oaks doesn’t know what the organization is supporting elsewhere. Or maybe he does, but like Roy said the positives outweigh the negatives. Very possibly I’ve donated to an organization that promotes ideas I don’t agree with so I’m just as guilty. I feel so badly about the human rights violations in Africa (not just this one) that I was just shocked to read on LDS.org that members support the organization. But I’m getting over it. Quote:Whether it’s SSM in Utah or illegal homosexuality in Uganda, we do believe in “honoring, obeying and sustaining the law.” I think that was Oaks’s point. I’m not saying the church’s hand in this (if any) is OK, nor do I support any involvement Elder Oaks may have. Fortunately I don’t live in Uganda or other countries where homosexuality is illegal (yes, there are manyother countries, including several others in Africa, the Muslim Middle East, and India). Were I to live in one of those countries I may become politically active to try to change the law – but it may also not be safe to do so.
Agreed.
Quote:I get that this is an issue for you Haven, possibly even a deal breaker. We all have our issues, and I respect that this is one of yours. I think you need to understand it’s not an issue for all of us, and there can be a variety of reasons for that. If you really are concerned about Elder Oaks, I would suggest writing to him (being respectful, of course) and let him tell his side of the story. You may not get an answer, but you might – this isn’t normally the kind of thing they kick back to SPs.
This is certainly a good place to vent, and I appreciate your bringing it to my attention – frankly I had not even heard of the WCF before (I was aware of Uganda making homosexuality illegal). This forum isn’t going to solve the problem though – I’m not going to stop going to church or quit paying tithing because of it and I’m not going to write to church HQ or protest on Temple Square (but I support your decision to do so if that’s what you feel you need to do). While I think there are people at church HQ who read the bloggernacle and get a general idea of what people think (and I think the bloggernacle has been responsible for some changes), no major change is going to occur by posting here.
Just to clarify, I’m not at all thinking of protesting or writing a letter, etc. Not my style, probably. I’m just trying to understand something that has very recently shaken me up. It doesn’t have to be anyone else’s issue at all. I don’t know that much about it either so that’s why I posted. I’m not expecting changes to any of the issues posted on this site or for problems to be solved, but is this a reason for me stop posting or discussing issues that are effecting me? This is actually a serious question since I feel invalidated at the moment.
Quote:I’m not going to pretend to answer for startpoor, but I will throw in that Elder Oaks said this n the context of believing (or perhaps knowing) that the ban on SSM in Utah was about to be struck down. He had fought vigorously to favor of the ban. I simply believe he was reiterating AoF12 and indicating that despite his opposition (and the church’s opposition) to SSM, he intended to abide by the court’s decision and cease opposing the ban, and that we should follow that example. In the broader sense, we are obligated to obey the law of the land as members of the church. I believe we are still free to oppose laws through legal methods, or even with civil disobedience – but there are legal consequences to civil disobedience.
Yes. This is my understanding as well. I think my point is that Oaks is an honorary member of WCF and this organization helped to criminalize homosexuality in Uganda. They helped to write the law that now puts homosexuals in prison for life. So, I’m not talking about prop 8 that Oaks fought against or any US law towards SSM. I’m disturbed at the connection the church has to this group and what it’s done to homosexuals outside of the US. I don’t care if the goal is for strong marriages, they are a part of something that is endangering lives in other countries. How is this ok?
Supporting marriages is one thing but the organization is criminalizing homosexuals and encouraging other countries to pass laws that punish them. It’s not ok imo and not Christian at all. In fact, the hate that’s been shown towards LGBT is horrible. The church leaders can’t truly want to include homosexuals and welcome them in to the church and yet support laws that punish them. Now openly gay people in Uganda will go to prison for life. The big players in WCF and other groups at first supported the death penalty for homosexuals. Guess they toned it down to life in prison. Quote:Brad Wilcox wrote:
She said, “Right! Like I don’t have to do anything?”“Oh no,” I said, “you have plenty to do, but it is not to fill that gap. We will all be resurrected. We will all go back to God’s presence. What is left to be determined by our obedience is what kind of body we plan on being resurrected with and how comfortable we plan to be in God’s presence and how long we plan to stay there.”
I really like the discussion about grace. I like that it is being emphasized more than in the past. However – I am somewhat disheartened at what happens to grace when we attempt to marry it to or explain it through our LDS works based theology/culture.
The view espoused by Bro. Wilcox seems to be that grace covers the fall of adam. Grace brings salvation and an inheritance in a kindom of Glory. Grace brings you back into the presence of God at least long enough for a final judgment. I don’t know that this young BYU student would be comforted to know that God’s grace in addition to her seemingly lackluster efforts may earn her a place in the terestial kingdom. This is where she will be alone and single for the eternities – never to associate in a family unit again. She may be found among all the other good people of the world that did not recieve the benefit of her LDS background – just above the whoremongers and adulturers. Now she can stop beating herself up for not doing her best. And this is from a talk titled “His Grace is Sufficient.”
I don’t find his view of grace helpful at all either, but it is exactly what I’ve been told by my bishop. I understand that it is much more promising than other Christian beliefs regarding the afterlife but it’s not helpful to me. D&C 76 is one that I can’t even look at anymore because I find it so discouraging especially for those who do not accept the church in this life.
Ray, I love your blog. I wish that’s what was taught consistently in the church. I’ve heard from GA’s that grace is very difficult to attain and it’s only given to the righteous. So much for it being grace.
I’m so happy you’re able to be open with her now. That is great news! I’m thinking also about what she shared:
Quote:She then said that it was only guilt that was keeping her going to church. That if she found out that it wasn’t true, it would relieve a huge burden on her.
“I’ve realized that the guilt I feel from church is what is causing all my other issues (referring to social anxiety and depression). I know it is the root cause of them.”
This is exactly what I feel as well and I hope she will be able to work through it and find a healthy way to stay in the church if that’s what she wants. I agree that a huge burden would be removed from me if the church is not God’s only true church. Fear that it might be true is the only reason I continue to try to find a way to stay. Otherwise I would probably find a religion that brings hope, joy and healing to me. Maybe someday that will be the LDS church.
I’m not sure if my question fits with this thread or not, but I didn’t see a better thread. I’m wondering if anyone knows or has an opinion about whether tithing money has been used by the World Congress of Families? I’ve heard that maybe it does. I’ve never had issues with tithing at all. This could be a deal breaker. I do read different versions. I use this site: You can look up any verse and read it from 20 different translations. It’s very interesting.
Quote:I’m just saying that I, personally, as an individual, don’t see this as saying anything about God. I’m saying I see it as saying something about people who focus on details over which they ought not obsess (making sure wording in a prayer matches their view). Likewise, I’m saying we also tend to obsess sometimes over details that aren’t important
This is probably why you, Ray, are able to stay sane and healthy as a member of the church while people like me struggle so much. I am working on learning how to separate what people say and who God really is. I don’t know why I take things to heart.
Something nice happened today in church that goes along with what you’re saying Ray. I went to sacrament meeting today but in a different ward. The sacrament hymn was Reverently and Meekly Now, which I really love. And the thought came to me that maybe all of the messy history of the church and irritating, unfair things people say and do are perhaps not worth all the anguish and perhaps it’s just mostly a bunch of noise that I need to try to tune out. Not that the words and actions aren’t painful, but maybe God is hoping I can look past the hurt and still find Him and let go of some of the other stuff that in the end isn’t as important as learning to love and forgive. It’s hard to explain but at the time it was very liberating. I get angry with the leaders when they put policies before people, but maybe I’m doing the same thing by obsessing so much about them and other details instead of on Christ.
What message does this send about God? To me it’s another example of sending the message that God is more concerned about policies than people and that women are less in His eyes. Quote:When you say the LDS view of God is toxic, Haven, what are you thinking of specifically?
Just to make it very clear, I understand that the church’s view of God isn’t toxic for most people and I think it was a combination of subtle and not so subtle teachings and me taking seriously what was told to me. Somebody else might have felt completely different. But for me I took everything to heart and my relationship with the church, and more importantly with God has always been based on fear.
When I was investigating the church I was told that those who reject the church/Gospel are rejected by God in the next life. Even though I hadn’t received a spiritual testimony of the church I was baptized because I believed what I had been told. So from the beginning I had a fear of God and losing my salvation. I was a student at BYU at the time. We were taught often that God will hold us accountable for our sins of omission as well as other sins. I learned that God is a God of order and that order must be followed. In more subtle ways I learned that God is racist and for some reason puts women in a lower station than men. He is more concerned with outward performances, ordinances and policies than with people. Even though I was told God loves everyone, the other teaching far outnumbered and outweighed the God loves everyone teachings. Why would I ever trust a god like this? The reason I don’t leave the church now is out of fear for my salvation. I still fear that god. It’s been terribly difficult to change my views about God because of this.
Quote:“why does it bother me so much? They’re not killing babies, they’re TRYING to be good people and most of the time they are. So, I’ve been trying to assess my motives for being critical of the church. How would you all answer?
They are trying to be good people and they are doing what they feel is right for them and what they feel God wants them to do. I know this and yet, like you, I have many negative and angry thoughts about the church. I can tell you why I’m angry and find it easy to criticize. I feel damaged by many teachings of the church but even more so by how the teachings have been taught. I also feel that the LDS view of God has been toxic to me. Toxic is a strong word and I know it may seem ridiculous to many that the church could ever be toxic. For me it has been. So as I’m working through this spiritual mess I have a ton of intense feelings most of which are negative. This is why I’m angry at the church even though the church is not necessarily all bad. My hope is that some day I’ll be at peace with it all and I won’t have such intense, angry emotions. That’s my answer fwiw
I don’t have any words of wisdom but I understand and I’m so sorry. I feel frustrated by the same things you mention and I haven’t found a good coping mechanism yet. But Ray said it comes in cycles and I think that’s true for me too. Sometimes I feel like I can deal with all of it and then I go through a bad time when I’m angry and anything church related makes me crazy. I try to remember that the bad times usually don’t last and that helps me a little.
