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Carburettor wrote:
I increasingly suspect that absolutely everything is symbolic.
I’m with you, Carb.
Symbolism can sometimes be powerful. It’s good if it is useful. Not always the same to everyone. That’s ok with me.
AmyJ wrote:
which usually jumps into “if you aren’t faithful to the Word of Wisdom, are you going to be faithful to me? are you going to be faithful to my values?”
I totally think you are right about this.
I also think this explains a lot of other things humans do because we compartmentalize things this way to protect our beliefs.
For example, LGBTQ+ issues. In the past it was race issues like a stance on interracial marriage.
When it becomes a trust issue…it is no longer about the very issue itself, but the fear of that issue becoming a slippery slope to hypothetical issues. And in that, perspective is lost and poor choices to choose love for others creeps in.
It no longer is about coffee, which is so stupid on an eternal level. And it becomes very odd that a group of people who have the foundation built on eternal families and loving everyone from a godly perspective, become so pedantic and judgmental.
Motes and beams.
PazamaManX wrote:
Heber13 wrote:The Wife [making conversation]: “I love the smell of coffee. Love it. Just hypothetically…what would you say if I just wanted to start drinking coffee?”
Her husband’s response: “I’d divorce you.”
My first reaction after reading that was thinking that he was joking. I’m guessing he wasn’t? If he wasn’t, that’s honestly sad to see.
He was 100% serious and holds this thinking to this day. It is sad how strongly people hold to their view of importance of obedience to commandments in the church. Black and white, all or nothing.
nibbler wrote:
As enforced today, the health benefits of the WoW are miniscule when compared to the cons of how the law is used to judge others. The divisive fruits of the law feel like they far outweigh any pros.
Agree. I think it’s a symbolic thing in the church now, or a tradition.
Kind of like some Jews still have Kosher foods. It depends on how Orthodox they want to be.
I think “sifting” could be a normal things for organizations like the church, not necessarily in and of itself as “bad”. It all depends on how it is done and to what extremes. Phrased another way, it could be “pruning” which is healthy for fruits being produced from trees, right?
In business, it can be prioritization or focus for performance and progress.
For political parties it could be realignment or course correction to core values.
For the church it could be clarifying teaching or emphasizing gospel teaching, asking for individuals to commit to agreed upon church standards and rules.
The devil is in the details of how it is done, and if people over – sift and go against Christ-like approaches in attempting to do a natural form of working in the vineyard.
Also, any branch that gets pruned is probably not gonna like it. Some analogies don’t work perfectly here. But my point is… probably agreeing with nibbler above…”it has been around since 1830.”
Where there is religion, there is sifting. Some good, some bad.
My shorter vent on this topic: I have heard the conversation below with family members talking about while we were at a reunion.
The Wife [making conversation]: “I love the smell of coffee. Love it. Just hypothetically…what would you say if I just wanted to start drinking coffee?”
Her husband’s response: “I’d divorce you.”
Responses like that make me sad we have put such emphasis on the insignificant details of obedience to this law.
Roy wrote:
Not everyone is “best friend” material and that is ok. Maybe the friendship is limited but that does not mean that it isn’t worth developing/preserving. I see it as “diversifying” my support network.
I like this a lot. Well said. It’s very wise advice.
I think we should go to church when we miss it (for any reasons, including social connections or career networking or basketball or anything we want to come from it…even service and spirituality).
And we should not go when it’s not working for us.
Such a good topic, nibbler. Thanks for outlining it. Had you not brought this up, I wouldn’t have known this talk existed. It’s now the first general conference talk I’ve read from the past session. And…..sigh.
I don’t even know what to think about it. That’s not negative, or angry… simply…. Meh. It is what it is in church.
I see this in what they preach:
Quote:In church we are taught how to apply religious principles…
[Snip]
The scriptures God has given Christians in the Bible and in modern revelation clearly teach the need for a church.
I will stop there…but…
If the source of what is “needed” is the same source of what they are selling…well…it’s a biased take from the start.
Is that talk for Kenneth and Lucille? Or even their children?
I don’t think so.
It’s for Kenneth’s Bishop or EQP or Kenneth/Lucille’s neighbor who sees them not attending and wonders how they get away with that.
You know…my daughter has a membership to the Orange theory gym and feels so good with that program to get healthy. She loves it when I go with her as a guest, and recently got her husband to go with her and get a membership and she loves it so much more having her favorite people go workout with her. It’s a good healthy thing. And if I ask the Orange theory gym manager why I should have a membership, she would tell me it is the best thing and something I can’t do as well trying to be healthy on my own without them.
But there are other options. Even if Orange theory (or the church) will position themselves as the best.
I have nothing against going to church. It’s a good thing to do, and better when families go together.
But there are other options.
I love the members of my Ward. I had someone recently tell me “hey, we haven’t seen you in a while…you should come back to church.”. It doesn’t offend me. I appreciate the gesture.
I’m not sure they’d appreciate it, tho…if my reply was…”hey…looks like you need Orange theory…you’d feel better about yourself if you lost some weight, looks like you need it. I’ll go to church when you go the gym.”
It’s just not a loving thing to do. But the point is the same. My judgment of what others need is not something I want to be sharing. And I need to not care what others think I need. I just choose what is best for me.
If someone thinks it would be better for me to go…I can just ask them to explain why it is better for me. The answers are telling. They are all biased affirmations of their faith, and that is good for them, and I respect that. For them. Doesn’t change the fact I choose what is best for me. And there are options.
I’m also happy for you. Sometimes I wonder in my life if random stuff happens. Pray for it, or not…sometimes good things happen, sometimes not.
If I’m patient and waiting enough … eventually some good finds my way …and it is good to recognize it and be grateful for it in prayers.
Life happens, and my brain tries to assign meaning and purpose to it. Life seems to be more pleasant when I view it with grateful eyes, and look past the rough patches.
I have thought about this topic a lot. The church has been constant with what it asks. The rules are known to me.
So it just becomes my personal struggle to adhere to it or not.
If something is changing, it is on my end, and how I see it or feel about it.
But the church hasn’t changed what it asks of me.
Roy wrote:
Heber13 wrote:
I think that is prayer. Meditation and prayer are basically the same thing to me, with some variations, but not much different in practice.
Yes! This sounds about where I sit as well.
How does faith play a role in your prayers? Just wondering so I can reflect, if you don’t mind sharing your ideas for me? I just wonder if meditation can include connection to the divine. I think it does…I guess…based on how I meditate.
I don’t think anyone hears my prayers. God is within me, and prayer is a meditative practice that has many benefits. To quote one doctor:
Quote:
“Learning to sit in stillness and self-reflect is one of the greatest gifts we can give ourselves and our kids,” says Dr. Amy Sullivan, PsyD. “When we look internally and delve deeper into our value system and wants and needs, we can communicate at a deeper level. We have to foster that ability.”Dr. Sullivan says silence helps us develop the skills to have:
More profound thoughts.
Stronger relationships.
Increased creativity.
Improved communication skills.
Source:https://www.google.com/amp/s/health.clevelandclinic.org/why-you-need-more-silence-in-your-life/amp/ I find answers sometimes to problems at work, or in my life, with still quiet moments to think and times to not think but to observe or follow thoughts. I don’t know I believe answers come from any source outside me. Not sure. But there are benefits to it when I relax and let the thoughts flow and not force it or expect it to be anything than what it is, as a personal experience.
Hiking in the mountains is particularly effective for me.
I think that is prayer. Meditation and prayer are basically the same thing to me, with some variations, but not much different in practice.
To me, the atonement is about hope and connection. Letting go of the past, hoping for a better future, accepting one’s self as imperfect, and connecting to be at one with the divine as you are today and think outside ones self to get strength to act.
Those things can help someone to pull away from some levels of depression, but it is an oversimplification to say that is all a person needs.
Our brains and our ego are complex and often need a combination of factors and solutions including medication, therapy, and many other habits of self care.
Faith in the atonement can be one, of many, tactics to battle symptoms of depression. Probably not at the top of my list though.
Doubter wrote:
I have been a member since 1981 but I would be a non member if I could, I stay for my wife who is a TBM . I haven’t believed in a long time (she knows this) I am however a Biblical Christian . My question is how do you sit through some meetings or lessons when you don’t believe a word that is being said , I’m finding this more and more difficult as time goes on .
Do you wish more was talked about that are in line with your beliefs as a biblical Christian? Is that what you are looking for? What makes it harder?
