[Heber13]

LaLaLove,

You sound really frustrated. It is always hard when my wife and I don’t see eye to eye on things (money, disciplining, etc).

The thought that struck me when I read your sincere post was Mosiah 4:27

Quote:

27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order

Maybe you don’t need to be obedient to everything right now. Pick and choose some of the most important things to be obedient on, and then study the others you aren’t sure about, and then you can be obedient to those when you feel good about it. First and foremost, you need to be obedient to your heart and what it is telling you is important more so than what others think you should be obedient to.

I think obedience is a matter of trust. My 6 yr old trusts me as his dad, and when a car is coming, I don’t have time to explain all the dangers, I simply yell, “STOP” and he knows that tone and obeys, and then afterwards sees the safety obedience brought him. But he does it initially because he trusts me. When I’m at work, I resolve business issues and when co-workers tell me what the problems are, I spend time gathering data and performing statistical tests until I can see the root causes of the problems at work. It takes WAY longer than if I just obeyed what people said, but my career is simply too important to my family’s welfare to risk it all on the words of some folks I can’t completely trust, so I need the data to show me the way when trust is lacking.

But you can’t just flip a switch and be obedient to it all at once, pick some and build on them piece by piece.

Quote:

D&C 50:40 Behold, ye are little children and ye cannot bear all things now; ye must grow in grace and in the knowledge of the truth.

[Heber13]

That makes me think of Elder Haight’s talk in GC in 1981 called People to People, one of my favorites. One part says:

Quote:

Driving to the Los Angeles Airport with a busy radio executive, I learned that he and his wife, though born in the Church, had never participated. Their social life of parties and weekends for fun and escape dominated their lives.

After eight years of marriage and three children, they were becoming concerned about their lives but did nothing about it.

Different sets of home teachers came and went. A new home teacher—a true shepherd—came into their lives, and after a time this new home teacher committed this man to go to Church once. Brother Adamson said he would not give up smoking and drinking. He had made a firm resolve not to live the Word of Wisdom, and if he was not welcome in Church because of it, that was fine. The home teacher said, “You are welcome, and I will pick you up.”

The first Sunday Brother Adamson attended Church he waited for someone to move away from him because of the strong tobacco odor, but that didn’t happen. “They will ask me to pray or work in the Church,” he thought. That didn’t happen either.

The home teacher did not phone on Sunday mornings to give him a chance to make an excuse and back out but drove to his home and would say, “Are you ready?” This home teacher picked him up every Sunday for over a year.

The Adamsons began reading A Marvelous Work and a Wonder and found that the Church consisted of much more than just the Word of Wisdom, which he had heard so much about all his life (and because he didn’t live the Word of Wisdom, felt the Church had nothing to offer him).

This couple soon learned it is a Church of love, not a Church of fear. They learned of the mission of the Savior and of our Heavenly Father and of repentance. They became so proud of the Church they had been born into that the Word of Wisdom no longer was an important issue. He didn’t go through the pangs of quitting. It just happened. There were so many other principles of the gospel that now were so important in their lives.

He said, “I found myself working on our new chapel and then one day quietly telling the bishop, ‘I’m ready, now. You can call on me to pray.’ ”

I think there are examples of people in church who really “Get it” – and know people are more important than rules. Everyone is different, and that should strengthen the body of the church, while at the same time asking people to change to continue to progress at their own pace and to their own levels. Not to become all the same, but to become better (whatever that means).

[Heber13]

Hang in there, LaLa.

I think you’ve expressed the value of this forum and why this group is still posting messages to each other. There is still so much of value to hold on to that we don’t want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I, too, am just trying to find a way to hold on to the plain and precious parts this church has to offer, and let go of the rest, as jmb suggests. I haven’t figured it out yet, but something tells me I can do it if I can focus on the right things.

“Obstacles are what you see when you take your mind off the goal”

[Heber13]

Mr. Musicman,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing your thoughts. I hope I can express my thoughts to you in the most sincere way that doesn’t come across judgmental or unsupportive, because I was really struck by how humble and contrite you sounded as you had to go through the church bureaucracy and process.

First, You sound like you have feelings and questions that still need to be worked out. Honor those valid feelings and don’t try to think them away with a positive mental attitude. Be positive and full of faith that you can work through those, but recognize your feelings are valid. For me, that is the first step to addressing my feelings I’ve suppressed for years.

Second, as you ask questions to the group, and I hope you feel open to do so, realize we are all here for the same reason and just trying to figure things out too…so I may not know any more than you on how to resolve it, especially since I haven’t been disfellowshipped to know the path you’ve had to go through. However, hopefully you will find this group is supportive and will share opinions and suggestions as you find answers for yourself, which hopefully as you share with us we can all be edified and learn from.

Third, realize what Ray said was true, and focus on your relationship with God. To me, your humble submission to church authorities sounds like the exact correct attitude and the Lord may want you to show Him you are truly seeking Him, despite whether the leaders are 100% correct or not, that is less important than how you are handling yourself to the ordained authorities in God’s eyes…IMO. I would suggest that perhaps you are unfulfilled with how the church leaders are making your resolve the issue because the true peace you seek doesn’t come from them, it comes from knowing God is pleased with the direction you are going in, despite where you’ve been. And that is the source that will fulfill you.

Welcome to the forum and I look forward to reading your views on subjects. May God bless you.

[Heber13]

jmb275 wrote:

When Joseph had a vision of Moroni, I don’t believe Moroni was really there. I believe it was in Joseph’s head. That doesn’t make the experience less real, but it means that we ought to be very suspicious of people who claim that their memories, visions, or dreams, were external realities and therefore have significance for the rest of humanity. Science has shown us that these are almost universally untrue.

Very interesting to think about…I need to spend more time researching this idea, which has been a hang up of mine recently on whether my prayers are for my mind to focus and meditate for my own benefit, or if there is an external force inspiring my mind. On the one hand, “it was all in Joseph’s head” makes sense when you consider he lived in this tiny house and shared a room with siblings, but he was the only one to see Moroni. On the other hand, it is difficult how visions shared by people, like Oliver and Joseph and the restoration of the priesthood or the 3 witnesses to the Book of Mormon could ALL be seeing the same thing inside their heads. Can science ever prove any of that?

jmb275 wrote:

Personally, I think if everyone had this opinion we’d have a lot fewer Jim Jones, suicide bombers, polygamy, Sun Myung Moons, and yes, even Mormonism etc. etc. etc. And my guess is that we’d all be healthier, happier, live longer, and have a lot less conflict in the world (although maybe we’d just find something else to replace it, I dunno).

For personal revelation, yes I agree. Do you believe there is institutional revelation, that is, Doctrine and Covenant revelations where many others who were receiving revelations were needed to be controlled for the church’s governance sake to have the prophet be the only spokesman for the church?

[Heber13]

Thanks for all the kind words about my daughter. I try not to brag, but I am a very proud father…I’m beginning to think someone knew I would need extra good spirits in my home to help me when I struggle, the kids just came that way and I’m grateful for that beyond anything else in this world.

One interesting note, like many of the other paradoxes my eyes are becoming opened to, by raising my kids with open communication and encouraging them to question things, that also means they do the same at home with me. They don’t just obey dad cause he said to do something, they question me at times. There is a fine line between open-mindedness and rebelliousness. It makes it a little harder because we have to talk and explain reasons for things, instead of them just obeying me and it can be less efficient. So there is a trade-off between strict obedience and free thinking, both at home for my kids, and for the church and its members.

Overall, I hope the kids are better for it in the long run. I’m sure they’ll get older and blame me for their problems anyway.

[Heber13]

jmb275 wrote:

Enjoy the journey!!

What a great attitude. Thanks so much for that. It will be my new mantra.

You know, I spent time in the yard yesterday with my son, showed him how all the weeds and dead spots in the lawn look aweful, and we were going to work together this summer to get the yard looking green and clean.

His response: “That’s stupid. The weeds are gonna just grow back. Why do we have to have weeds. Why can’t the grass just grow green on its own?”

I’m thinking this could be a summer for some great learning opportunities! For me as well as for him. The effort put into making a lawn or a testimony grow is what brings peace and satisfaction when we’ve passed through it and can look back at the results.

I will try to remember to “Enjoy the Journey” like my friend jmb275.

[Heber13]

Valoel wrote:

It didn’t mean that a prophet NEVER makes a mistake.

Excellent point, Valoel. I think this is a very difficult thing for people to grasp, and has been since the church was restored. Believing in living prophets is more difficult than dead ones, because they are fallible, you usually just don’t hear or read about the mistakes the dead prophets make (Old Testament and since).

But to me, it is still reassuring that only Christ was and is perfect. Therefore, my faith needs to be on Christ, not on anyone else, including the prophet. I can have a testimony the prophet is a true prophet, without him being a perfect prophet.

You said it best, that makes it harder, and requires more personal responsibility, as you said.

[Heber13]

Good quote from Hawkgrrrl, which is probably what is the scripture being put into practice.

But it does seem weird to me that in most cases, unless excommunicated, leaders would say to continue to wear the temple garment as a way to remember convenants and rededicate oneself to them on the path to repentance, yet the outward ordinance of the sacrament visible to all would be withheld. Seems like it would be the other way around.

Especially since the sacrament is all about receiving forgiveness of sins and remembering the Atonement, and the garments are all about remembering the covenants we made and keeping them. One who has sought the bishop’s help should be one that is trying to repent, and that would be more worthy to take it than one who may be hiding sins and taking it unworthily.

Maybe its about the withdrawal of something so it can be appreciated, but I do think of the things they could take away for that penance process, the sacrament is the one that is needed most, not least.

[Heber13]

Quote:

LaLaLove: The prophet will be an inspired Man(Is that always? Will it ever be a woman?..

The prophet as defined above is a priesthood position in the church, the great High Priest in the heirarchical order. That means it will be a man until the Lord allows women to hold priesthood offices.

Quote:

So is the only big problem when members think HIS prophetic words trumph their own(assuming they are both equally inspired)?

I assume all can be equally inspired. As Hawkgrrrl posted earlier, it should follow I have a right to inspiration to confirm the prophet’s revelations, so his word trumps all, and we are all able to receive confirmation for ourselves that it is true.

If we don’t receive confirmation, then we have a conundrum, and continued study and prayer is required but the church will move forward in its leader’s direction and the individuals have to decide to follow or not. The church as an organization has to have order to function and survive.

Quote:

I have an example I am in favor of gay marraige

IMO, you are allowed your opinion. I have friends who deal with this in their family. But the individual belief on the issue doesn’t mean we can receive revelation for the church to adopt doctrine on it (they church couldn’t function that way). So it becomes trials for us to reconcile our beliefs with the church leaders direction. In many cases it is doctrine vs. practice to figure out, not your revelation vs. mine. For example, doctrine might say practicing homosexuals can’t be married in the temple, but they should be welcome in our congregations just like any other person to worship God. Doctrine vs. practice.

[Heber13]

just me wrote:

I want to teach them things but I’m scared they will say something at church that will upset someone. Yup, I still fear man.

They have been indoctrinated to believe in the temple and missions and works. I’m really at a loss on what to do.

Just Me, from my experience, what helps best is a good relationships with the kids that we can allow open and responsible parent-child talk. Ask them what they believe. Respect their belief.

My daughter (14) speaks up in YW all the time, saying, “My dad says you can still be happy if you marry someone outside the church. We have part-member families in our ward, they’re happy. Temple marriages don’t guarantee happiness” or “My dad says it is more important to teach people about Christ, from all books not just to talk about the Book of Mormon” and stuff like that (not in a confrontational way, just class participation) – so far, the feedback from the bishop to me is that the YW leaders needed to be reminded to teach correct principles, and they have grown to respect my daughter for her thoughts instead of the drones that just sit and aren’t even paying attention. I guess if the things the kids say in church are based on truth, it should stand on its own, and truth can set you free of your fears. If it is really controversial or questionable truth, it is probably better not said in public but only talked about at home. Something the kids also need to learn.

[Heber13]

Tom advised me in my personal introduction to go slowly, think slowly as I morph through my journey. Good advice.

In that line of thinking, I have lived happy in the church for over 35 years, and there is no need for me now to frantically run tell my kids or my family all things are different now and they need to know all complexities and paradoxes. If I was ok on my journey to find out things in due course of time, my kids will be also.

If I believe the Stages of Faith Development hold true, then my teenage kids are at a stage where it works best for them to be in Stage 2 and moving to stage 3. I don’t need to push them to 4 or 5, they need to develop when they are ready, if at all. That is up to them.

My daughter and I just had a long talk on our date night about the FSOY standard of not dating until 16. Standards night fireside last Sunday got her thinking and asking me questions. They taught in the fireside only a few of God’s children will get to go to the Celestial kingdom, so they need to raise their standards and live to prepare to marry in the temple and have higher standards than their friends. Dating at 16 is one of those rules.

The fireside was well intentioned, but missed some points and had shaky doctrine, and I was proud my daughter (14 yrs old) was smart enough to pick up some of that and ask questions that didn’t seem right. It gave us a chance to talk about it and me share my opinions and her to realize she needs to find answers, not take YW leaders at every word taught at church. On the other hand, we discussed that not dating until 16 is still a good standard to not rush into relationships, make waiting to date as fun as waiting to go to dances at 14 was for her, and on and on.

The bottom line was, we were able to talk and help her see many of the good from church that will benefit her. The things that don’t sound right should be questioned and we’ll establish our standards for drinking soda, dating, keeping the sabbath holy, and other interpretations as a family. I don’t want her to be rebellious and throw out all the good the church teaches, but I want her to learn to develop a testimony by searching things, not by blind obedience. But I won’t teach her all the things I’ve been reading lately, she’ll have to find that on her own one day when she is ready.

My young boys of 6 and 10 will just continue to be taught the normal primary lessons. Like believing in Santa Claus, there is value in letting them have hope and peace to understand things at their level. As they grow and develop, their faith will need to grow centered on Christ, the true meaning of religion just like Christ, love and service is the true meaning of Christmas, not the symbolism of St. Nick. I hope they get married in the temple, I hope they serve missions, and I hope they find good companions to build their happy families. I hope they find peace in developing their faith throughout their lives and I hope my journey will help them if they get troubled one day on things they can’t explain in the church.

[Heber13]

Tom – a question for you… I’ve been going back through everyone’s wonderful responses to my introduction and making a reading list of things I want to study and look at.

in your first post to me, you said:

Quote:

It may be a long process that could take years. I suggest you go slow and stay mindful of the tenderness of your soul and the danger of anger and bitterness. Speak slowly. Make decisions slowly. Ponder slowly.

I’ve been considering going to talk to my bishop to see if he has any recommendations of study material. I think it may serve me good to continue to study both church and non-church material, not just go the way of avoiding all the normal Stage 3 Mormon material. But I wonder what he will think of me if I really share all my doubts.

You suggested I speak “slowly” – do you think I should hold off while I study and not raise issues that I might resolve on my own later? Or what was your intent by the slow advice? :

[Heber13]

Here’s the church’s definition:

Prophets

As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are blessed to be led by living prophets—inspired men called to speak for the Lord, as did Moses, Isaiah, Peter, Paul, Nephi, Mormon, and other prophets of the scriptures. We sustain the President of the Church as prophet, seer, and revelator—the only person on the earth who receives revelation to guide the entire Church. We also sustain the counselors in the First Presidency and the members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators

I think that would be different from the gift of prophecy, which can be given to men or women, or patriarchs, or fathers or mothers in personal situations.

[Heber13]

I’ve enjoyed reading everyone’s posts on this book and scouring the many websites with summaries of the stages.

Quote:

Ray said: Stage 4: Confusion and pain and anger caused by the shattering of Stage 3 mindset.

While I think I’m in stage 4 personally, it is so interesting to me how others share the same feelings and doubts and struggles with what previously was a stong testimony of “knowing’ so many things without a doubt.

The value of reading these stages to me is that we move in and out of them, which provides hope because I’m not sure I’m comfortable in stage 4, I’d rather be in more confident stage, although enlightenment is my goal, not lack of struggles.

how long is this stage 4 thing gonna take, anyway? :

[Author]

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