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Quote:
There are serious issues that have to be confronted when we stop hanging onto infallibility, but I believe we simply MUST stop asking our prophets to be what prophets never have been.
Well said, Ray.
What is a prophet? If we can define that, we can respond to LLL’s question on how to answer if we believe TSMonson is one.
My definition: Called by God to be His messenger and is the deciding authority for the church on the earth. The prophet doesn’t have to be speaking for GodALL THE TIME, but when God wants a message sent, He will use His prophet to send it through. If the Holy Spirit inspires others, the prophet will be the authority to state if it is from God and correct, or will correct it through his authority as prophet. I believe God accepts and supports His prophets, even if they aren’t perfect. Like the Brother of Jared, the idea of using crystals to light a ship may or may not be the best way God can light a ship, but hey, if that’s what the prophet asked, and it is acceptable to God, it becomes God’s will when He accepts it as such. The Word of Wisdom may be the same thing.
The events of the lost 116 pages teach that the prophet’s will doesn’t become the Lord’s will just because the man desires it, so sometimes the prophets are allowed to fail to humble them, but God will not allow the prophet to be wrong without correcting them so that we can have confidence in a leader that will be directed/corrected/connected. Opening the door to them possibly being wrong at times is the part that gets very sticky, IMO, for many people to have faith in them. That is why dead prophets are easier to revere than living prophets, especially since the dead prophets have the help of a faithful recorder that can make them look good.
So for me, I have to answer: Will TS Monson be the one to receive God’s message, and will he be corrected if he makes a mistake?
Jacob 5 was the first thing that popped into my mind, but Ray beat me to the punch. But pick any scriptural group and that is the way the story goes, the cycle taught in the book of mormon (Revelation – Disobedience – Pride/Fall/Sin – Repentance – Revelation ,etc etc etc).
IMO, spacious maze, God is a person with all eternal truth and the power to create all things. However, the plan has Him removed for some reason and He only gets involved from time to time. Most Christians believe He is all places at all times. I don’t believe that. After Adam and Even left the garden, He sent an angel to check on them, and they were offering sacrifices because that was what they were told to do. Sending an Angel means He wasn’t there.
Hawkgrrrl gave a post on mormonmatters.org on April 22 about the parable in D&C 88 where the Lord visited workers one at a time, which means He leaves some alone for times why He blesses some with his countenance.
In my life, I feel there are times I’m left alone and assume He’ll check back with me to see how I’m doing. Instead of wondering why I’m left alone, I am trying to focus on what I should be doing with my talents and get ready to report and hopefully get an update on if I’m doing ok or if I’m off-track and it is time to repent.
I think the scriptures support this as one line of reasoning. Its not that the words of the revelations aren’t strong enough, just that we are left on our own to live them and are tempted by wordly things and can get distracted. That provides the mortal testing grounds for us.
Quote:Both models have problems.
…and surely both models have advantages. Many anthropologists will argue the value of elderly in a community is to teach and remind the younger generations of the cultural values that have helped keep the community/society successful and avoid making the same mistakes forefathers have; And the natural course of progression requires change.
Perhaps the church does offer both advantages, holding on to a conservative resistance to changing values over time from the perspective of elders, yet allowing for change through modern revelations that allows the staunch faithful to accept change.
I like the yin and yang, and the marriage idea. I also believe there is a place for both in the human experience. Faith can enlighten the mind to scientific breakthroughs, science can provide necessary knowledge to correct awareness and push the faith further.
I think sometimes people take one without the other, and want science to prove all things and don’t believe in religion, but in my experience that leaves me spiritually empty and unfulfilled. Others blindly follow religion because it is easier than applying scientific methods to figure things out, or they refuse to see doctors because they have faith in being healed by God when medicine and doctors may have the healing power needed without God’s interaction.
But both can exist together and compliment each other.
From ‘jmb275’ and ‘just me’ raising some great points in the other thread about the book of mormon one liners and how the facts on the origin of the BOM from the church teachings are deceitful (correct me if the wording is not accurate, but that was the gist I got from the other thread), I posted this note: I can see there have been things in church history the leaders have not brought to the public’s eye, but I also think we live in an information age where we expect access to all information, good or bad. My grandfather who died of cancer had a different philosophy he lived by, and he would always draw my attention to the good things he was thankful for, and didn’t want me dwelling on the controversial because it didn’t help me. Certainly that point can be debated, but our generations see more value in that than older generations, IMO.
My question to the group is twofold:
1) Is my premise correct, that older generations tried to just focus on the good and not talk about the bad (not just church leaders but generations of society in general)?
2) If so, is our discussion on the decietfullness of the church leaders really a discusssion on
generation gapsjust me wrote:I do believe that a symbolic (spiritual) understanding of the scriptures is what is important. The literal is meant to confuse and cause people to search deeper.
Great quote, just me. I think there is great wisdom in that statement. The smaller plates were translated for the spiritual content, not the historical, fact based content, and so we are left to discern with our spirits what is of value and what is not. Literalists can interpret and try to prove things, and miss the true meaning of God’s gift to His children with spiritual lessons that help me find out in my life what I should do, not because I own a Liahona literally like Lehi was reported to have found, but simply the symbolism of finding my way in the wilderness can be similar to that of others who go through life searching for direction.
I also would say I disagree with you on many other points you’ve raised…and for that I thank you for sharing your thoughts openly in this forum. It is good for me to hear your pespectives, and then decide which I feel I share views with you, and which I have my own opinions of. Either way, I am better off by sharing ideas and hearing others’ perspectives.
I think I lean a little softer on the deception. I can see there have been things in church history the leaders have not brought to the public’s eye, but I also think we live in an information age where we expect access to all information, good or bad. My grandfather who died of cancer had a different philosophy he lived by, and he would always draw my attention to the good things he was thankful for, and didn’t want me dwelling on the controversial because it didn’t help me. Certainly that point can be debated, but our generations see more value in that than older generations, IMO.
I will post this question in the other thread on deception.
Quote:@Just me-
The means of translating the BOM-inspired book, troubling that we are deceived, scriptures are full of the “occult” being used by prophets
Interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing.
Can you explain where you’re at with the “troubling that we are deceived” part? I’d be interested to hear your thoughts.
seedtender wrote:I keep thinking I will attend the Ward. I never go. Fear stops me. That sounds silly. What is there to make me afraid? I grew up in the church, served a mission, and held many callings. I think I fear being judged, still wondering if it is a mistake, wondering if the same things that prompted me to leave in the first place would make me do so again.
I hear ya, seedtender. In your head you may say it is silly and you shouldn’t worry about what people think, but when you go and sit and look around, you just can’t help feeling what you feel. I have tried to accept my feelings and not try to think them away with a positive mental attitude or logic, my feelings are just what they are, and now I move ahead and I can try to change them with actions, but I can’t change them with thoughts.One thing I am trying to do is find a way to volunteer for small acts of service. Volunteer in Elders Quorum or High Priests Quorum, or visit my home teaching families (which I’m terrible at visiting) and some youth I see are missing.
I feel I can read and study at home and get more spiritually fed in my own studies than at church classes, and I don’t get much socialization nor am looking for that in the ward on Sundays, what I really can’t get without the church are good opportunities to serve others and that always makes me feel better about myself and I think the church is a good source of opportunities to bring us together to serve others.
One thought is to reduce the awkwardness of going back to church and seeing what others do when you show up, is to look for ways to get involved in the church and it seems to break the ice and make it easier. Just some thoughts to consider.
jmb275 wrote:Also, missionary work, for me, is really the ultimate in, what I feel, is deception. We send out 19 year old guys who almost certainly know nothing about real church history.
Now, I recognize that this is the old way. They have Preach my Gospel now (which I haven’t read), but from what I understand there is still no in depth discussion of church history. And the basics are the same, if just a bit less structured.
Great post, jmb – got me thinking about a lot …. made me realize in many respects, I can share your feelings – but I don’t believe necessarily the church or missionaries are trying to be deceitful.
PMG is a little different, but like you said, just allows flexibility for teaching the same primary-level gospel doctrine.
My take is that I believe the church and the missionaries are being honest in their heart. Faith is the first principle of the gospel. Taking things on faith is not to cover up things, is just the way religion is. Pure religion moves you to be a better person. You can “feel” the teachings are good and move you to be better than if you stay where you are without it. It is more about the feelings and how it motivates you to change your life than it is about being proven with facts and details.
I’m not suggesting your post or anyone else’s responses are lacking in faith, in any way, it is just how I’m thinking through this, so these are just my thoughts.
It is an interesting paradox: Seek Truth that will set you free of things that can’t be explained. Miracles are a part of religion, not to dupe people, but just because we move ahead with faith before we can explain away what happened, because we become better by moving than by standing still trying to understand something.
Because of that, I can read Abraham 3:24-26 and have it touch me and change my life, even if verse 16 makes no sense to me. My questions around verse 16 or the facsimiles on nearby pages don’t take away the value found in verses 24-26.
Likewise, Joseph Smith’s account of Zelph does nothing to motivate me to love others or love God. But most of the Book of Mormon does. I can’t believe he just made all the Book of Mormon up. But I don’t care if he made up Zelph or not, it is of no value to me.
Elder Eyring’s talk in conference about Adversity (was that written to me specifically?) confirms to me that the Lord’s work is being done, because I feel it. Likewise, I feel good when my mason friend tells me the service he is doing in his Masonic Temple – he is a great guy and will be rewarded by a Just God who can resolve the issue of authority and baptism, so I don’t have to worry about that.
I guess I am trying to learn that although many things in the church do nothing for my spiritual welfare, those don’t negate the other things that do. I don’t think I’ll ever leave the church, I will just find ways to accept the godly parts and focus on those, and not worry about the historical details that do nothing to raise my spirits whether true or not. That isn’t to say I want to live in ignorance or put blinders on or be deceitful or duplicitous. Only that I accept I can only process so much… so I choose to spend my time reading and processing the things that make me better, and not spend time on other things. That being said, I am more enlightened now to a lot of things about Joseph Smith and church history that I never knew before, and I frankly can see some merit in the arguments against Joseph Smith as a prophet. But I go back to my feeling that being in the church is making me better than giving up on it, so I will have faith in it until I feel otherwise. I hope I can be open-minded, be honest, and accept my shortcomings in being able to know all things so I can move forward in trying to make a difference in this world and for those I love.
I don’t feel I’m appropriately expressing my thoughts, it almost sounds like I’m just saying some church inconsistencies don’t matter…just accept it on faith…when I don’t really mean that. I just think the church is better than any alternative, and I will keep moving forward looking for the godly parts while I striving to learn more.
Again, thanks for your post…it was good for me to think this through.
jmb275, thanks for recommending that book. Can you tell me a little more about what the interviews are geared at and what the purpose of the book is.
Fact is, right now in my doubting stage where I feel my trial is to be left alone a little and study things out in my mind on my path to growth, I’m reading a lot of things and I have to be selective of my time and my material. I’m a bit impressionable right now, so I don’t want to spend time on anti- religion stuff, but am looking for any material that is uplifting and inspiring (religous or secular) to me so I can continue to strive for being a good husband and father, despite my current trials of faith. I’m trying to avoid negative material.
Maybe you can share a little of why you thought the DVD was good for you and how it helped (if you don’t mind sharing)?
I appreciate your thoughts.
Old-Timer wrote:Get up and share ONE simple principle that you know or believe is important and beautiful – the need for charity toward all, the concept that God loves us (or that God really is love), or that forgiveness is a wonderful gift, or something. Keep it short and sweet and heartfelt, then sit down.
Well put, Ray. I’ve done that in a meeting after a long story that I’m sure was elongated by nervousness on the person, so I just stood and said, “I believe Jesus died for me, and that helps me feel peace, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.” and sat down. I felt good about it, not in a chastising way to others, simply in a way to state what a simple testimony can be.
I think these are all 1 sentance (maybe a few run-on sentances?) Blacks – At one time, skin color separated kingdoms and families for a reason, but that was thousands of years ago…today skin color like hair color doesn’t matter.
Polygamy – It could work under perfect conditions, but “I say unto you, that because all men are not just it is not expedient that ye should have a king or kings to rule over you.” (MSH 29:16)
The means of translating the BOM – The definition of a miracle, I can’t explain it but it worked.
The 3 witnesses – In or out of the church, they never denied it.
The 8 witnesses – Groupthink.
The Pearl of Great Price (that’s a BIG one) – Like all revelation, it takes faith.
Brigham Young – Strong leader but not perfect.
The Blood Doctrine – Sounds like an Old Testament teaching which shouldn’t be required after the Atonement, which is sufficient for all.
DNA evidence not aligned with BOM – How do you know which needs to be proven true – Book of Mormon archeology details or DNA testing procedures?
re-baptism – After excommunication, the repented soul can have all blessings restored without needing to perform all the ordinances again, so re-baptism isn’t needed even though it was done at times with good intentions.
Homosexuals – Line upon line, and choice upon choice, choices can change a person’s thoughts and feelings, but church members need sensitivity training to welcome and accept all people into the congregation.
Masonry similarities to the Temple – Restoring truth can mean finding bits and pieces in various places and pulling it all together correctly.
The fact that prophets no longer testify of actually talking/seeing/speaking with God – Attests to their integrity…their honest.
Adam-God Theory – Just a theory.
Mountain Meadows – They never said they were perfect…but when it gets that bad, you MUST investigate and apply justice.
Secret Tunnels – Before reality TV, people amused themselves with fun legends.
Dannites – Secret combinations can be dangerous
Lafferty Brothers – Every religion has whackos – Krakauer’s book started with an attempt to present unbiased facts, but had to sell the book with some interesting things, so he added a bunch of stretches.
White Salamander – Shows how hard it is to create a forgery that stands the test of time, which is another testament of how amazing Joseph Smith’s work was.
The Wave Stone – Never heard of it.
The Sword of Laban – If it is in the cornerstone of the Salt Lake Temple, now’s a good time to crack it open and take a look.
Mummies – Just a body without a spirit, with more questions than answers.
Parchment – Old stuff is really cool.
Dolemite – Never saw it.
Zelf – An interesting little tid-bit but not important to me whether it’s a story or truth.
Cain – Good lesson: don’t be the 1st to screw up or you’ll be the example of what not to do forever and ever.
Three Nephites – No citings in Malaysia, proving the America’s are the Land of Promise and not Malay.
John the Beloved – Wrote some good stuff.
Jackson County – Garden of Eden? Really? Have you been there?
Destruction of The Nauvoo Expositor – ?
Kirtland Financial Crisis – As if persecution wasn’t enough.
Spiritual Eyes vs. Actual Vision – Both send sensory signals to the brain to be interpreted.
Different Accounts of the First Vision – Since it wasn’t video-taped, we need to rely on memories of human beings that are trying to relay what actually happened.
The “real” origin of The Word of Wisdom – Emma
Quakers on the Moon – sounds hoaky, what-ev
The lost 116 pages – I’m surprised they’ve never been published after all this time, guess they really are lost.
Solomon Spaulding – See White salamander
Philastus Hurlbut – Witha name like that, his parents didn’t give him a chance…, seriously though…When once that light which was in them is taken from them they become as much darkened as they were previously enlightened, and then, no marvel, if all their power should be enlisted against the truth, and they, Judas-like, seek the destruction of those who were their greatest benefactors.
-Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, (2007),315–26
jmb275 wrote:This caused me to introspect. I then discovered church history. This is particularly sad since in my high school days I read lots of Joseph Smith biographies (patriarchal blessing told me to) and they were all hagiographic (I learned later).
jmb275, thanks for joining and sharing your thoughts. “Hagiographic” – great word (I had to look it up) but a great word. I share your thoughts. I look forward to reading your input to our discussions and expanding my vocabulary further!
drewe wrote:I love the Church but like many of you I have doubts.
Hello, Drew. And welcome to the forum.
“If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things” – Rene Descartes
I look forward to reading your input on the discussions.
