[Herodotus]

It was my understanding that Bruce R. McConkie was the one who made the “God merged old planets together and Dino-fossils come from those old planets” theory popular. He and his father-in-law, Joseph Fielding Smith both believed this. Can anybody confirm this for me? I remember hearing from a valid source, but it’s been years.

On this topic, I gave a guest lecture in a BYU history 201 class just last year, my topic being “the Bible as historical source.” I felt the same frustration this thread addresses. In an auditorium of about 200 students, I was very surprised to see that not ONE student would was willing to say the Bible might not be 100% fact. Not one student would vary from the literalist-young earth theory in any measure! I was still TBM myself at the time. This lecture was a turning point for me. I thought I was mainstream LDS up to this point. That is when I started to realize that, though still TBM at that point myself, I had views that were not in line with the majority of the Church.

I am sure, and hope, that there are many members who don’t dismiss logic. I don’t expect or even want everyone to interpret things the way I do, and I know there are TBMs we can talk about these things with. But if that lecture was any indicator (201 is a general education course, btw; so it makes a good sampling of typical BYU students, not historically-minded BYU students) the average BYU student certainly has no problem dismissing science if it is encroaching on their faith.

[Herodotus]

Thanks Ray, that’s a good point as well. While I want to be optimistic, I won’t get my hopes up.

[Herodotus]

If you’re late Lala, then I’m really late. Gail, I just want to add my welcome. I’ve really appreciated the support I’ve gotten from this group in my few short weeks actively participating.

I too think homosexuality is something you’re born with, or not. My very unorthodox prediction: I think homosexuals will be able to get married in the temple within the next 50 years or so. I know that the Church couldn’t want anything less, but it also didn’t want to give up polygamy, or to give blacks the priesthood, two well entrenched doctrines, as deep as the anti-gay bit, I think. I’m sure I’m in a very small minority in projecting that, but it is what I honestly think. To it’s credit, the Church is very good at back-peddling to whatever degree is needed to continue to survive. It will not allow itself to be so unmainstream that it risks falling apart, and I think the gay marriage issue is going to push the church to the point that it will have to cave, even if long after most conservatives churches have.

Anyway, welcome!

[Herodotus]

Business as usual, in my opinion. Chile has historically had terrible earthquakes, and the tsunami affect usually goes with it. That history is part of the reason there were so few deaths: their buildings have a high standard (remember 250,000 people died in Haiti with a 7.0 and only 200 or so have died so far in the Chile count).

I think that if we had records that went back centuries, that wouldn’t be the highest recorded quake. I think that is just a result of our only recently (few decades??) having the technology to record earthquake ratings with accuracy.

But then again, I’m not even sure I believe a second coming will happen at this point in my faith. That should definitely be taken into account when taking my opinion!

[Herodotus]

Thanks for sound advice everyone.

Orson, I appreciate you clarifying that it is okay to doubt, I’ll be sure to not give the impression I want to fight against the church (which is a true statement anyway).

Nightwalden, I think it is wise to make sure he once again understands everything said is confidential, that is quite important to me. This is, after all, the first time I’ve opened up to a ward member, so I’m feeling especially exposed in doing this finally.

Brian, thanks for the reminder on “normal rules of engagement.” I seriously would have forgotten that having little experience in opening up. I tend to be too honest for my own good, and would probably share more than I need to unless I mentally keep myself in check from saying everything I feel.

I really appreciate your responses, I’ll read them over the night before lunch (sometime this next week). I’ll let you know how it goes!

[Herodotus]

Welcome, Shadow!

I’m a bit like you, hanging in their with the church because I love my wife and wonder if the myth is a good thing for my kids … but I’m trying to figure out how much of a wave to make, or if to make one at all. It’s good to have you here.

[Herodotus]

Just want to say thank you to all of you. These are great thoughts and I’ll be mediating on them for a while.

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It’s not a competition. Orson, I like your post, the more I think about it the less I really care if the concept of “exaltation” existed. Thanks for putting it the way you did!

[Herodotus]

I’m reading Rough Stone Rolling right now, and earlier today I read that while Joesph was in Washington D.C. fighting for redress for the Saints from the Missouri Wars, “Joseph insisted more than once that ‘all who would follow the precepts of the Bible, whether Mormon or not, would assuredly be saved’.” –pg 395, RSR, by Richard Bushman.

I’m still trying to figure out what I think of Joseph Smith anymore with what I’ve learned about his history, but regardless of his personal life I’m continuing to be more and more impressed with his teachings (which seem to part ways with modern Mormonism, at least culturally, quite a bit!). He obviously didn’t think you needed to be Mormon to find Jesus. Now, does salvation in this context equal exaltation? I like to think it does, because I doubt the Church was into the splitting of hairs over those two words in 1840 as it is today, but I’m hardly one who can say what Joseph meant; I think this shows, however, that Joseph definitely respected other churches, even if the LDS church today doesn’t follow his example as well all the time …

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Hi notamember,

I have to say I’m impressed with your level headedness. I’ll just third what has already been said, we are coming from the LDS church background, but have about the same perspective you have: appreciate many good things about the LDS church, but are frustrated by other aspects (personally, I am likewise frustrated by everything you named on your list). Hang with us! I think it would be great to hear your perspectives as someone who wasn’t raised LDS, and I would hope we can be of help to you too.

[Herodotus]

Thank you all for a very warm welcome, it’s very comforting, not having to feel like an “apostate” for simply expressing my honest thoughts. Orson, Tom and Flowerdrops, thanks for some great references, I’ll look at them; and I like your hopeful vision as well Tom, I’d like to think that more people like us will choose to stick with the church than leave. I think it would have a positive impact on LDS culture if there were enough of us that our presence becomes acknowledged as a part of the mainstream-church, a group with needs as much as TBMs–just different. Thanks so much to all of you! I look forward to getting to know you all and gleaming more insights from you.

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