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Kumahito wrote:
how can a TBM who has read RSR still have an unqualified and unreserved testimony of JS?
I don’t know. My view of him changed, certainly. But I was still able to see how he could be a prophet, mistakes, weaknesses and all.
Kumahito wrote:If you’ve read RSR, I’m wondering how it influenced you?
I marveled at how JS could have done all he did. I think 10 parts bad 90 parts good. And I gained a real appreciation for how critics have the advantage when characterizing someone’s heart & soul after the fact.
HiJolly
DarkJedi wrote:
If I told you I’d have to kill you
No problem.My intro was back in early 2009 —
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=174 HiJolly
[in regard his book _The Miracle of Forgiveness_] “Spencer later seemed to wish he had adopted a gentler tone. In 1977 he said to Lyle Ward,
his neighbor, ‘Sometimes I think I might have been a little too strong
about some of the things I wrote in this book’. . . . When he heard of
others who read the book and became discouraged by a standard that
seemed to them unattainable, he wished he had communicated more
understanding and encouragement.”
— Edward Kimball in Lengthen Your Stride: The
Presidency of Spencer W. Kimball pp. 79-80
mackay11 wrote:President Kimball on receiving the 1978 revelation:
Quote:“Day after day, and especially on Saturdays and Sundays when there were no organizations [sessions] in the temple, I went there when I could be alone.
“I was very humble . . . I was searching for this . . . I wanted to be sure. . . . I had a great deal to fight . . . myself, largely, because I had grown up with this thought that Negroes should not have the priesthood and I was prepared to go all the rest of my life until my death and fight for it and defend it as it was.”
(Anyone have a reference for this?)
Best I’ve found is: “Kimball, Edward, 48”
How about“We had this special prayer circle, then I knew that the time had come. I had a great deal to fight, of course, myself largely, because I had grown up with this thought that Negroes should not have the priesthood and I was prepared to go all the rest of my life till my death and fight for it and defend it as it was. But this revelation and assurance came to me so clearly that there was no question about it.” (Deseret News, Church Section, January 6, 1979, page 4)
Quote:The “last” spiritual experience that led to my crisis was just as strong, warm, and peaceful as all the others – my first discussion and the JS story, baptism, temple marriage, and so forth. I was and am so confused – since the feelings were exactly the same, I don’t know what to believe and I don’t think I can trust my feelings anymore (sorry Obi Wan).
Ok, I have to admit I’m just dying to know what happened here. But I know that DarkJedi is the best judge of what to share & what not to share.
FWIW.
HiJolly
I don’t recall how many years ago I entered this – but I do know I’ve edited it fairly recently: http://mormon.org/me/1RW1/CliffB I ran across this quote and thought of cwald (and most of us, too): John Taylor, JD 9:14:
Quote:Suppose there are some who do not do exactly right in some places, what of that? There are many things that are not right. Never mind; everything that is wrong will in due time be righted. Permit me to bring a figure before you. A year ago last winter there was a very severe frost, and it injured the fruit trees. Some who professed to be judges thought it best to cut down the peach trees; some thought that if left alone they would still grow, and therefore they left them alone to see how many would live. There was quite a difference of opinion upon the subject, and some adopted one plan, and some another. The general impression was, I believe, that it would be best to cut off those limbs that were frost-bitten and that did not appear to have much sap in them.
Now, my doctrine is, Prune the trees, or, in other words, the branches of the great tree to which we are connected, just at the time when it will do the least injury. It requires great wisdom, however, to prune and regulate the Church of Christ. There were a great many of our people got frost-bitten—a kind of dead in their spirits, and some were for going right to work and pruning; but hold on. Said Jesus, “The wheat and tares must grow together until harvest.” Perhaps you would pull up the wheat with the tares, if you were to do it when you think best. If there is nothing good in a man, he will by-and-by develop the evil that is in him, and then everybody will agree that the pruning ought to be done, and the branch ought to be cut off; but if the good preponderates, it would be wrong, because of prejudice or ignorance, to destroy the good. It is best to leave it to the husbandman, and then all the congregation will say Amen.
HJ
MesaMom wrote:HiJolly, Thanks for the recommendation.
I enjoyed reading the article. I loved the symbolism and analogy of birth and partaking of the first tree. That was new to me.
A while back our gospel doctrine teacher, who was also our former Bishop and a retired institute teacher, taught a lesson on “the Fall”. His lesson helped me to see the topic on a whole new level. Before his lesson, I always felt confused by why God would give them(Adam and Eve) a commandment and then expect them to break the commandment. I never truly got a satisfactory answer to that question.
However, in his lesson he taught that when God said they should not eat of the fruit it was not a commandment but a statement of fact that eating of the fruit will bring a consequence not a punishment. ” 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
In verse 16 he explains that eating of the fruit of all the other trees they can do free of consequence, but that the consequence of eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge will be mortality. Which I felt fit with the doctrine we have always heard that Eve knew she must partake that “Man Might Be”.
If you had not already heard of that approach to the fall I thought you might find it interesting.
Yes, I like that approach – and while I had some feelings that match this, I had not thought it out. Very good.HiJolly
I most often feel that salvation is not some rational, theological principle, but just the feeling written of by King David of old — Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. My salvation is knowing God will not leave me in hell.
HiJolly
MesaMom, you should read this! http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2010_The_Two_Trees.html (hey, I grew up in Mesa! Woot!)
HiJolly
Tom Haws wrote:So, did you like singing the song? I assume you must like the songs if you keep singing.
I liked it ok. The music itself was pretty good.And if my wife were not so self-conscious of her failings and imperfections, then I probably would like the song more, as I really do appreciate the sentiments of the song, for my own part. But I have great sympathy for my wife’s position of feeling like she does not measure up, and so in having compassion for her feelings, I would prefer, personally, foregoing that particular song.
But I belong to a large group of singers, and we all have to make accommodations for each others likes and dislikes, or nothing would get sung at all. Mostly. So I’m ok with that. It’s not all about me & what I like or dislike. I wait a few minutes, and we’re usually on to something I like.
HiJolly
After singing a perfectly sappy, sickly sweet song about the way every mother is the source of all good in the world and Practically Perfect in Every Way(tm), I went to my home ward and listened to one the the most awesome sisters in the ward talk about how moms are human and just try to get the job done as best they can, and how that is all anyone should expect. She said it way better than I. My wife & I loved it. Her husband spoke & said something like “if men had babies, I’d want an epidural right after conception!” He’s a former bishop. I really love my ward.
HiJolly
Old-Timer wrote:… those who become self-sufficient in this manner (who begin to catch sight of the celestial foundation underlying the terrestrial doctrines) have an obligation to “give back” to the organization that enabled them to become who they became – or contribute to the stagnation of that organization by leaving.
Yes. The butterflies have much they can do for the caterpillars, which they once were.HiJolly
