[hippo]

mom3 wrote:

Part of me wanted to shout “To whoever is running this faith crisis show, I didn’t ask for this. I did all the right stuff, I served with sincerity, I paid money and time, and faith. I read scriptures, I attended the temple, did the visiting teaching. And this – this journey of discovery is what I get. That and two young girls who probably don’t even know what their school majors are, are sitting in my front room feeling virtuous for reaching out to the lost old lady. They have no idea what callings I have served in, what lessons I have taught, what leadership experiences I have overseen, or what GA’s I’ve eaten lunch with. (On that note does Elder Dellenbaugh of the 70 count as a GA, and likewise the deceased President James E. Faust.) If I am lost – I know where the building is, I can find my way back. In fact I will be there next Sunday, just like I was 2 weeks ago.”

This really spoke to me, mom3. We’ve been on the project list for a year off and on now, and it drives me crazy too, though I couldn’t quite put my finger on it. You were lucky they only stayed for 10 minutes. They always stay for at least an hour. We once literally had them stop by just as we were sitting down to dinner, and sit and chat with us in our living room in full view of our dinner getting colder and colder for an entire hour. AND THEY DIDN’T EVEN SHARE A MESSAGE OR ASK WHAT WAS WRONG! I have finally decided that my husband is right: Gentle honesty is the best policy even if it hurts me or someone else. When they started demanding weekly appointments, I told them that we were exploring other churches at the moment and didn’t have the desire to meet with them anymore. They were very surprised, but thanked us for their honesty and haven’t been back since.

But what I quoted from you above is honestly how I feel about my faith crisis over all. I don’t know why God would take me on this journey. I was so close to him before, and now He feels so far away and confusing. I have broken my parents hearts, my FIL is no longer speaking to us, and I don’t trust anyone anymore with spiritual things. Sorry, just venting too

[hippo]

We have a daughter high on the spectrum as well, and have run into issues too. She was terrified about going to nonmembers houses for a long while because they might offer her (gasp!) coffee and insist she drink it. 🙂 What I have found that works with her is getting answers from someone she views as making the rules. (Rules are everything to these kinds of kids. He was probably told a list of things that he had to do to get the the celestial kingdom and didn’t think he could do the whole list) Find his teacher and explain the situation and see if they are willing to talk with him and help him see he is doing enough. Even better, seek out some books, LDS or not, that discuss the beautiful and often overlooked concept of Grace. Believing Christ is one that might fit the bill and could be read together (though it’s been years since I read it). Hearing it from someone or a book always works better for her, as for some reason, with things like this, I am not seen as the rule maker.

[hippo]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the feedback. I appreciate knowing that I’m not the only one parenting kids that struggle with faith, church, etc. I agree that faith crisis was probably not the best word to use, and I get what you guys are saying with regards to that. I also am glad to know I’m not the only one dealing with a child that doesn’t want to be baptized, or be ordained to the priesthood, etc. I will not force this on him. Something this big needs to come from his whole heart. I will deal with the fall out and the disappointed extended family. I agree that boredom my play a part in it, but I don’t think continuing to force him to church each week is the right way to fix it. That sounds a lot like satan’s plan if you ask me. He was invited to AWANA tonight (It’s a Baptist church kids Bible program) by and Anglican friend, and he LOVED it. It’s wrapping up for the year, but I’m going to look into letting him go next year with this same buddy of his and see if it helps.

I guess the hard part for me is that I never imagined raising my kids spiritually the way I am now. I’m an RM, and I couldn’t wait to gather my little chicks around me and teach them the Gospel of Jesus Christ that I had taught to my investigators. Instead, I find myself struggling with what to say when they do ask me about anything but the bare bones about God in general. It is painful every single time, as I realize how much that dream is gone and can never come back. However, I am getting more and more accustomed to the idea of throwing things back at them and asking them, “What do you think?” and honestly being pretty ok with whatever they decide for themselves. If I could do the same thing with my extended family, life would be so much easier.

Again, thanks for all the support that you guys offer here. I’m a silent reader here for the most part, and I’ve gained a lot from your comments!

[hippo]

I agree with you, LookingHard. I think that as hard as it was a pill for me to swallow that the church may not be “the one and only true church on the face of the earth,” it was still harder to realize that the leaders of the church knew all about these glaring mistakes and chose to sweep them under the rug. True followers of Christ know they make mistakes (like we all do) and they confess them and ask for forgiveness. Christ was perfect (at least I’m pretty sure!). No one or nothing else in my mind can claim that, including any church who have people running it. What ideas do you suggest in changing that, Looking Hard? It’s a sticky problem, as challenging leadership is often synonymous with challenging God Himself.

[hippo]

For me, it was the recent church statements on polygamy, buried and unauthored on lds.org and the church’s excommunicating those who point out the reality of church history. Before that, somehow I hoped that maybe all this stuff I had discovered about church history really was somehow “anti-mormon” propaganda, even though I knew it probably wasn’t. Part of me also hoped that maybe the leaders of the church had never strayed from looking at the sources that they recommended to missionaries and members. That way, the reason they didn’t come out and clear the air it was out of sheer lack of knowledge. But, when they came out and admitted Joseph Smith’s polyandry and polygamy, still claimed that it was divinely inspired, yet hid this deep in the website to protect it from the naive general membership of the church…. And John Dehlin and others who are willing to put the unpolished version out there are threatened with losing their membership… something inside of me changed. I now know that what I know is reality, and what I believed before isn’t. Even more so, the church isn’t going to admit this difference even exists, and will even go as far as disciplining those who don’t follow their version of the truth. I’ve gone from an every Sunday goer to a once in a while Sacrament Meeting attendee. I no longer worry as much about how this will impact my kids or my parents. What matters is that I am true to myself and now that I know what that truth is to me, let the chips fall where they may.

[hippo]

I have also been the DW in the same spot your wife is in. All I would say is first and foremost, in all you do with regards to this, let your love for her be paramount. Take the discussion at her pace. Stop when she asks to, even if it is abruptly. And, start with all information and sources that will not be taken in any way to be “anti-mormon.” It was when my husband tearfully came to me with things found on LDS.org or linked sites that I finally was able to stop worrying about his possible “falling away” and see the facts as they were for the first time. Granted, I’m not sure I’m glad that I know what I know now because it has been a rocky few years spiritually speaking. But our marriage has become stronger than ever as we stick together and love each other wherever we are at on this journey.

[hippo]

We had the most moving sacrament meeting I had been to in a long while. The kids were awesome, with a non-offensive primary song for the dads. For once, we could actually see all three of our little ones without anyone being covered up by someone. What was the most moving was a friend of mine talked about her father, who had passed away within the last year. She talked about his faith, and his favorite Hymn, How Great Thou Art, and how she could still hear his voice when she heard this song. Then she and her husband played How Great Thou Art together. He played the piano, and she was on the violin. You could just feel heaven open as a daughter reconnected in a small way with her loving father. And of course, through such a powerful hymn. ( I can’t say that about many of them) It was beautiful. I really needed that, and will never look at that song the same.

[hippo]

shoshin wrote:

cwald wrote:

If something is critical of the church, and makes the church look bad, is it ANTI MORMON literature even if it is TRUE?

A very important question, I think.

My main interest in posting was to discuss the nature of spiritual knowledge and faith. But that may not even be a direct response to his/her question (OK is hippo a his or her?

I would like to ask hippo what he/he meant, since that was the motivation for this thread. But until/unless he/she replies here, I guess we need a working definition of anti-Mormon information.

Hi shoshin,

I am a she

Thanks everyone’s comments thus far. I think cwald hit close to what I was personally asking or trying to get at. Basically, is the stuff the church discourages us to read mostly factual? I get that there are those who really intend to draw people from the church, but what about the facts? What is the difference between an anti Mormon slant, and the glossy version we get in Sunday school? Neither makes me feel good and confidant in the source. Is either the truth, or is it in the middle somewhere?

I agree spiritual knowledge is acquired differently, but it is hard to find it at church that hammers trivia into our head as was stated earlier and ignores possible facts in history at the same time.

[hippo]

I just finished reading the Narina series, ( by cs lewis) which I highly recommend. In the last book, a good man who has diligently followed a different god his whole life meets aslan, who represents Christ. He asks aslan your question, and aslan says,” everything good you have done in the name of your god has honored me, and every thing someone has done for evil in my name did not honor me.” I think it is the same for us.

[hippo]

This is probably a dumb question, but in light of what is happening to john dehlin, I have to ask it. Is all the stuff that I have read recently, like fawn Brodie’s book, Mormon stories, etc etc the truth? Or can even part of it be false or unconfirmed? Also, is there any record of the church coming forward and saying this “anti Mormon” literature is false? I’m just having a hard time wrapping my head around the church trying to excommunicate him for telling the truth. Slander? I totally get it. But if he is interviewing truth, then….

Growing up I remember being warned to not read antimormon literature as it was called. Was I being warned against reading the truth? To be honest, I’m scared to research more because of what more I’ll find out, and also because of the brainwashing to not do it still lingers….

[hippo]

IM, I’m glad that you are taking this decision to go to church or not seriously, but I have a comment that no one has touched on that I think is very very important. What about what the girl ( your future wife) thinks about you going to church or your spiritual beliefs in general? You admit that you went to church for a girl before. Did she know about your beliefs? Probably not, as you mention that it is hard for you to find someone to date. I say this having had the same experience and marrying late too, so please don’t think I’m trying to be mean here. Dating is so brutal, and I’m so glad those days are behind me. Despite whether you stay or go, you need to be honest with the girls that you date with your spiritual beliefs. It may be hard, and you may feel that you are limiting your prospects by doing this. but if you are not honest with an LDS girl before you marry her, you are going to be in a world of hurt for both of you. What if she is a TBM? That is going to cause a lot of struggle in your marriage. Just read around here a bit, and you’ll see how hard it is. People make it work, and most of the time here, it happens as one member of the marriage changes after the marriage. You are talking about creating one of those situations on purpose. If you just go to church together and you don’t tell her your beliefs, she will feel lied to and will not understand. If you discuss your beliefs ahead of time, she might break up with you, or you will have an ally, which is going to be so much better. Inside or outside of the church, this is important. I agree too that there are many amazing women outside of the church for you to choose from with similar values. California is going to be a much better place to find them too. Inside is going to be harder,as you are going to have to find a non-traditional Mormon like one of us.

[hippo]

I have nothing new to say that hasn’t been said, but I am very excited for you… And those of us like you. You are going to make such a difference!

[hippo]

looks like i have a reading assignment. Thanks everyone! 🙂

[hippo]

My husband and I have struggled with this too, and we have found one thing that works very very well:

Service. not the accepting callings kind of service, but the helping out others kind. I’m going to give some examples, not to toot my own horn but to illustrate:

-we took the missionaries out to dinner on the harbor and to some special historic sites they otherwise would not have seen around Christmas. we had a great time spending the day with them, they Loved us for it, and now advocate for how good we are despite our “issues”

-we have a couple in the ward who both have overwhelming callings. on a whim, i called and asked if we could watch their young children so that they could get in a needed date. again, everyone wins.

-they are always looking for people to clean the building, so we sign up several times when it is our month. it helps us get to know others, we don’t look like disengaged freeloaders, and it shows our kids the importance of contributing.

-be willing to substitue! when they ask for volunteers in (cringe) nursery, say, “sure as long as i get to eat the snacks too!”

-also, once people get to know you, they can find out about what else you do outside of church to lend a hand to others. they begin to realize you aren’t a hopeless inactive, but Christlike, and it helps breakdown the misconceptions that go along with being “inactive”

it takes energy to look around and see who needs help in the ward. i’ve learned to look especially to the leadership. they are often exhausted and need someone who cares to notice and do something unassigned to help. this does take time and energy, but it builds those friendships fast, and it forces members to think about who you are and not just outright judge you. it also helps you love them back in-spite of themselves- actually, i think that one works both ways. good luck!

[hippo]

I really don’t mind that this tread has rambled off of an intro. I have learned a lot about JS and the biggest thorn in my testimonies side. I’m just so scared of researching this topic first because it makes me so mad and second because i don’t know really where i’ll find truth and where i’ll find venom or apologetics. I just want the facts. I guess i had come to the conclusion that JS was some sort of manwhore, and that was so terribly disturbing. I had never thought about how sealings were so different back then, and so was so much church doctrine. you all have given me some food for thought. thanks! it’s so refreshing to have a dialogue about this instead of having to shut up and just get more and more frustrated b/c i don’t want to voice my concerns and end up a project or end up ruining someone else’s beliefs.

on another note, i did talk to my bishop, and he was so nice that i fell for it and told him too much i think. he told me i’m on his top 10 list now. (he said it like a good thing, but it made me cringe. i’m officially a project.) oh well, at least he cares. i really appreciate him for that. in some ways it’s nice. i can relax a little about being exposed and work on just being me, whatever that is now. i have to agree with one of the previous posts. i need to stop worrying about what everyone else thinks and just be comfortable with who i am and what i believe.

I really think i’m going to like “attending” this “ward.” 🙂

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