[Holy Cow]

Rumin8 wrote:

Church hours – I think this is working. Except. Eliminate SS. Perhaps combined meetings once a month, or less like on a 5th sunday.

Home Study – I hate this. So far it seems to be more of a way to get a correlated curriculum of mundane-ness into my home. Used to be I could leave this at church.

I like these ones! Bouncing back and forth between SS and EQ/RS every other week is annoying. Is there really any reason for the EQ/RS to have to meet apart from each other? Let’s just do SS every week or EQ/RS every week! Of course, that would throw off their correlated plan, so we’re stuck with the system we’ve got until they feel like we’ve done it long enough that they’ve seen a return on investment (however they might quantify that return).

[Holy Cow]

mom3 wrote:

GC is a week away. The web is rife with rumors. Most of them totally bogus. So…what is left to change?

Thus far, [list]

[Holy Cow]

I said “Extremely Happy,” although I think that’s kind of a stretch. I’d say I’m really “Mostly Happy.” But the next category was “Somewhat Happy,” and that felt too low.

I generally happy with life right now. Of course, there are those ups and downs caused by the typical curve balls that life throws at you. But, generally I’m happy with how things are going. Work is good, kids are doing well in school, marriage is…adequate, my relationship with church stuff is comfortable and on my own terms. I really don’t have any major complaints about how things are going emotionally, socially, spiritually, financially, physically, or professionally.

I’m interested to hear the follow up, to see where this question is coming from. :thumbup:

[Holy Cow]

nibbler wrote:

My math might be off by a year here and there:

DHO: Becomes prophet in 2020 at the age of 87 – passes away at the age of 92, serving 5 years as prophet

JRH: Becomes prophet in 2025 at the age of 84 – MRB passed away at some point during the DHO administration – passes away at the age of 90, serving 6 years as prophet

DAB: Becomes prophet in 2031 at the age of 78 – HBE and DFU passed away at some point during the JRH administration – passes away at the age of 94, serving 16 years as prophet

Yikes! Your prediction of a 16-year tenure for Bednar is depressing for me just to think about. I wouldn’t survive 16 years in the church with Bednar at the helm.

Personally, I don’t think any of the current top 15 would push for extending the priesthood to women. The only way I see it happening would be for external pressures to become so extreme that it forces them to make the change (after receiving ‘revelation,’ of course)! 🙄 But, without a lot of external pressure, I don’t see it happening. And, as long as the Catholic church continues to exclude women from the priesthood, I believe we will as well. I don’t see us making the change before them.

[Holy Cow]

SamBee wrote:

The trouble with Star Wars is that it is utterly commercial and what spiritual messages it has are undermined and destroyed by the fact that the makers of the films are so obsessed with making money out of every last detail.

Star Wars is to spirituality what the Spice Girls are to opera.

Unfortunately, I could say the same thing about religion. There are plenty of people out there, who just use religion as a money-making scheme. I can turn on my TV any Sunday morning and find half a dozen different TV Evangelists urging people to send in their money.

[Holy Cow]

nibbler wrote:

This is off topic but I think the subject that we never broach at church is what we do if we receive personal revelation that isn’t in harmony with the revelation a church leader receives. I think we often resolve that in our minds by making the assumption that a genuine personal revelation would always be in harmony with the revelations received by leaders.

There was a woman on my mission who said that she received personal revelation to pay a 7.5% tithe, instead of 10%. However, when she told the bishop that she was paying 7.5%, he took her temple recommend away. She was very hurt by it, and continued to pay 7.5%, even though she knew that she wasn’t going to get her recommend back. My companion asked her why she didn’t just pay 7.5%, and tell the bishop that she was a full tithe payer. She said that she felt that would be deceptive. She was very adamant that she had received personal revelation with this very specific instruction, and insisted that as long as she was following God’s will for her, then that was more important than having a temple recommend for the time being. It was an interesting situation. She was very well off, and easily could have paid the additional 2.5%. She was very giving, and helped the missionaries and other members with meals all the time. Both her and the bishop vented their frustrations to the missionaries about the situation, but we were able to stay out of it, luckily.

As far as the Rome Temple goes, if RMN says that it was revelation to bring along the entire Q15, then I’m fine with that. My only question is why he couldn’t also extend the invitation to some of the female leadership. “Alright, God, I’ll invite the whole Q15, as you’ve instructed. I’m also going to invite the General RS Presidency, unless you’ve got any specific instructions not to, alright?” I doubt he would have received a response of, “No.” I don’t know… I tend to agree that revelation tends to be overused whenever there isn’t a better answer. It’s kind of the equivalent of a parent telling a child, “Because I said so.”

[Holy Cow]

Old Timer wrote:

3) Photo ops as impoertant religious leaders with the Pope are powerful propaganda. It does send a message to a whole lot of people, inside and outside the LDS Church. Priceless? Probably not. Worth what it cost as part of the package? Probably.

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, which is also why I think it was a missed opportunity. They could fly out the top 15 and their wives, but none of the leaders in the women’s auxiliaries were invited? Seems like a swing and a miss! I’ve seen one picture of the top 15’s wives, which originally stated, “The wives of the first presidency and quorum of the twelve.” There were a lot of comments complaining that their names weren’t even included, and they were only being referred to as ‘the wives of…’ However, it looks like they paid attention to the comments, and have now added the names of the women. Would have been nice to see some of the women leaders mixed in with the PR photo campaign, and the husbands of those women standing alongside, “the wives of…”

[Holy Cow]

I don’t feel like this temple was built for the local membership. It will likely have more attendance from LDS members who are visiting Rome, than from the actual local members. Any time a church member goes to Italy for vacation, the Rome temple will now be on the list of sites that they MUST see (so they can come back and tell everyone about it in F&T meeting). I’m sure there will be no shortage of testimonies about how ‘cold and unfeeling’ the catholic cathedrals in Rome feel compared to our incredible temple. 🙄

This temple definitely feels like more of a PR move than something that was built for the members in Rome. And I agree with some of the other comments about the photo opportunities with the Pope and the statues of the apostles. I’m sure the meeting meant a lot more to our top execs than it did to the Pope. It was a media blitz, and they definitely did everything they could to try acting like we’re playing with the big boys now. Comparing our modern apostles to the Christ’s 12 bugs me, too. Our current leadership is more like a board of directors, right down to the God complexes found in most boards of directors. That photo opp felt like an effort to remind people that, “Hey, look, we have the same authority that these guys had! Look how important our keys are! If it wasn’t for the restored priesthood that we hold, we’d all still be like those lost Catholics!” :sick:

[Holy Cow]

Although I don’t have any plans to go back to the temple, I applaud these changes. Several of the changes are things that I’ve told my wife that I wish they would change. Another change I’d like to see would be to allow men and women to sit together, instead of splitting them up. Even in my most TBM days, I used to roll my eyes when people would suggest going to the temple for a date night. I can’t think of a worse date night idea, not being able to talk to your spouse, or even sit next to them. I’d also like to see people be able to receive signs and token from either temple matrons and patrons, regardless of the gender of either the giver or receiver. I hope that isn’t getting too specific.

Anyway, I really like the gender-related changes. I hope it isn’t another 10 years before we see more changes. This is a great start. :clap:

[Holy Cow]

DT,

I can definitely relate! However, I think before giving a real answer, I would have to ask a question. You’re asking whether or not you ‘should’ ordain your son, but you don’t say whether or not you WANT to ordain him. Or, whether or not he WANTS to be ordained. I think that makes a big difference. My son will be 14 in a few months, and when he was 12 I made sure he knew that the decision to get the priesthood was completely up to him. He made the decision not to get the priesthood, and still hasn’t to this point. At that time, I told him that I wanted him to be able to tell me why he didn’t want it. He said that he felt like the priesthood is sexist. He has also said that kids at school are more friendly, swear less, and are more ethical that the other boys in YM, so if boys with the priesthood act like that then why would he want to get the priesthood. I’m completely fine with him not getting the priesthood, as it sounds you would be, but I don’t know what your sons stance on it would be.

Also, if my son decided tomorrow that he wants to get the priesthood, I would be completely supportive of that. I would ask my father to ordain him, and would not feel like I was missing out in any way. I don’t believe I need to be the one actually ordaining him to be supportive. I would still be right there, sitting next to my wife, while my father ordained him. You don’t have to lay your hands on his head to be supportive.

[Holy Cow]

My advice to her would be to think of lessons that are completely outside the box. Our bishop does a great job of doing things that are completely out of the ordinary, and it has really helped me re-engage at church, simply because it isn’t as boring. He’s done things like having two guys in the ward (one works for the FBI, the other is a cop) talk about what to do in an active shooter situation. This week we’re leaving the church building during the 2nd and 3rd hours and taking a field trip to the temple grounds (about 45 minutes away), where we’ll have a short devotional and musical number, and then going back home. A few weeks ago, he had a past member of the Stake Presidency come talk to us about things that people do as members to push people away. He talked about how there are Principles (that never change and are the foundation of the gospel), and then there are Practices, Policies, and Preferences. And it’s typically the way that we focus on those last three things that pushes people out of the church, and then we blame them for getting offended. It was a fantastic lesson that everybody here would have loved! Our bishop also had a nurse and doctor visit the ward to talk about marijuana (I’m in a State where recreational marijuana is legal), and they talked about both the PROS and the cons, instead of it just being a completely one-sided conversation. It’s a very progressive ward, and most of that is due to the influence of the bishop. Anything your mother can do to try new things and experiment with things that are outside of the manual will keep things fresh and excited, and will help people want to stay.

[Holy Cow]

Old Timer wrote:

I believe there is a general understanding now at the top leadership level that the temple endowment is a universal bestowal of Priesthood power and authority – and that all “worthy” adults should have it – and that endowed women, married or not, actually do receive it – and that we need to stop talking about it the way we have for so long.

So, if men and women are both receiving the same priesthood power, and all worthy adults should have it, then why can a TR-worthy man not attend the temple if he doesn’t hold the priesthood? I just started thinking about this recently, when our youth group went to do baptisms for the dead. My 13-year-old son was not allowed to go, because he has decided that he doesn’t want to get the priesthood until he’s really ready for it. He would easily be able to answer all of the interview questions, and would be considered ‘worthy.’ But, he can’t go, because he doesn’t have the priesthood. Why do worthy young men have the additional requirement of having the priesthood?

[Holy Cow]

I see a few variables in this situation.

1. Is this past event impacting this couples marriage at all? Is the partner holding onto it or hurt by this past event?

If this event is still troubling the spouse, then it may more valuable to talk about it with a marriage counselor to help them both move past it and start looking more at the future than the past. If the spouse is feeling hurt by the past, then they may also be feeling that by not confessing and facing the consequences their SO is trying to sweep it under the rug. However, if the spouse isn’t bothered by this and it isn’t affecting their marriage, then I would think that dragging it up with a bishop would only stir up things that are better left in the past. It really depends on how this is impacting the marriage and whether or not both parties feel like they can let this go.

2. Does this person feel that confessing to a bishop is the only way to get resolution?

If this person is feeling like their only options are a.) confess to a bishop and go through a disciplinary action that feels overly burdensome, or b.) leave the church, then I can see why they would be feeling stuck. The church teaches that the bishop is the judge, and that confession is required, so it’s easy to see why they’re feeling this way.

3. How orthodox is this couple? Are they black/white thinkers, or are they willing to think outside the box?

If this couple is completely orthodox, then it will be hard for them to get past feeling like confessing to the bishop or leaving the church are the only options. I look at it differently, though (as do most of us here). I see the church as a tool that is available for us to use to develop a relationship with God. It’s there to facilitate the process. And, the bishop is one piece of facilitating that. However, my relationship with God is MINE. Nobody NEEDS the church to have a relationship with God. If this person feels like they can find resolution by going directly to God to confess and seek His advice, then perhaps that would be a way to cut the church/bishop out of the equation. They can still go through the repentance process, without relying on the bishop to intercede. That’s an unorthodox perspective, and not everyone would agree with that, but I suppose if you ask a group of unorthodox folks for their thoughts, you’re going to get some unorthodox answers. 🙂

[Holy Cow]

dande48 wrote:

Joni wrote:

That may be true – but female nurses, massage therapists, etc deserve to be compensated for their time even if they ARE more naturally nurturing. I don’t think I’ve EVER heard someone stand up in sacrament meeting and volunteer the YM to perform free labor for members of the ward, regardless of what that labor is.

Lol, it happens ALL THE TIME in priesthood meeting. I’m sad to hear it happened over the pulpit in sacrament meeting tho.

True. The YM in our ward are expected to set up chairs for sacrament meeting each week, EQ is expected to help with moves. I think service is a good thing, but the conscription method bothers me, regardless of which gender is being conscripted.

[Holy Cow]

I went through a similar exercise a few years ago, and found it to be very therapeutic! I posted my personal articles of faith in the following post:

http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7013&p=98020&hilit=articles#p98020” class=”bbcode_url”>http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7013&p=98020&hilit=articles#p98020

I found it really helpful to be able to transition away from the mentality of “We believe…” and really dive into what “I believe…”

Good luck!

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