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Thanks for the link Ray to the previous discussion. I like the fact that the church has moved away from previous policies that caused a lot of pain, frustration and were obviously linked to plural marriage principles. I like the fact that the church has evolved and is evolving to more reasonable, Christlike stances on many things. But it does reinforce my strong belief that God reveals His will directly through our LDS leaders on a VERY limited basis – leaving the vast majority to the best efforts of good men and women.
Thanks for the feedback. I think finding service opportunities within the church that resonate for me and my family really is an excellent way to progress and grow as a member of the church despite my numerous doubts and disbeliefs regarding doctrinal issues. For me, the key is to try to focus on what I DO believe much more than on what I DON’T. And I certainly have a testimony of service and charity. And I realized something else – while I consider myself semi-active (or whatever the pc term is now), I recognized that I actually spend quite a bit of time working on my beliefs and spirituality by reading all of your wonderful comments here. So I may not always feel I am growing by sitting through a 3-hour block (another glaring example of non-revelation within the church is the fact that we actually call it a “3-hour block”), I am growing and working on my testimony every day that I come to this site. Thanks!!!
By progression I do mean my personal progression and general satisfaction when I have such a hard time accepting key doctrines and teachings that are often the foundation of the testimonies of the majority of active members. Maybe the essence of it is – how do you deal with not accepting that leaders are speaking for God when that seems to be at the heart of the restoration of the Gospel and of most member’s willingness to live according to what is asked of them as members of the church?
Like most here, I have completely accepted the idea that many, many things that have been and are done and said in the Church are completely the ideas and opinions of man. Where to draw the line between revelation and opinion/tradition/culture/pressure/administration, etc seems almost impossible at times. But it does seem a bit strange that a God who seemingly provided our early leaders with revelation regarding literally anything they asked about – Joseph in particular – would not more regularly step in to minimize the damage done by those things that were obvious speculation or even mistake. It seems odd for example that the Lord would (apparently) give long revelations about where someone was to serve a mission and yet sit back and allow Joseph to engage in the debacle of plural marriage that has negative lasting effects to this day.
The best way for me to reconcile this is to assume that much of what Joseph attributed to revelation actually was his opinion. I think Joseph quickly developed the habit of beginning his opinions and speculations with “thus sayeth the Lord” – and we are left to sift through the results of that.
I am almost at a loss to distinguish revelation from anything else it may be except to rely on what feels right to me. I really have become a Mormon that largely relies on my own sense of what the Lord wants me to do – even if it goes entirely against the current handbook or puts me squarely contrary to Oak’s recent conference talk. I simply have little faith anymore in past or current leader revelation. I have a great deal of respect for these men and women as people with good intent. But I currently do not see them as regularly speaking the will of the Lord.
Perfect addition to an already spooky night! One of the LDS concepts that have fallen into the category of uncertainty or disbelief for me is the idea of Satan and his followers. At a minimum I don’t buy the typical LDS concept that he is around every corner at the root of every temptation we experience. And if he is real – I would expect that some day the atonement would also apply to him and he would be given the same opportunity that we all will have after this life to grow, change and repent.
I find myself holding strongly to a few things that can only be upheld by faith – such as a belief in the Savior and His Atonement and our Heavenly Father and Mother. And yet, over the years many other beliefs such as the BofM, Word of Wisdom, and many statements made by modern day Prophets have fallen into the category of uncertainty or outright disbelief. So I admit that it is ironic that have held on to certain things that admittedly require faith and have no objective evidence supporting them while allowing other things to slip outside of my testimony because I admittedly do not have enough faith and/or do not find enough objective evidence. I think that my dilemma largely hinges on my uncertainty of modern day revelation. Or at least my faith in the consisteny and reliability of it. This allows me to rely on my own feelings rather than accepting the entire LDS package. What a wonderful talk! Thank you for sharing. I find myself constantly torn between negative feelings toward the rigidity, fundamentalism and judgement that can be exhibited by some in our church and my desire to love and reach out to all I can. While it can feel like we are in the minority at times, I am reminded as you have been that many, many in our wards feel very similarly to us. Your talk and these comments have reminded me to focus on loving and serving all – even and maybe particularly those who can so agitate and dissapoint. And a huge part of doing that is trying to view and treat others the way the Savior does. To do so is the pinnacle of empathy and love. I love the new “platinum rule” (instead of the “golden rule”) which is to treat others the way THEY need to be treated rather than the way WE would want to be treated. It is another step toward pure empathy. Perhaps the ultimate “rule” is to treat others the way the SAVIOR would like them to be viewed and treated.
Welome Dave and the best of luck to you on your journey. Just remember not to let LDS myth and personal opinion add to your burden. You said, “but do not like feeling like I am not able to make it into the highest point in heaven because I am not actively seeking a wife.” You can drop that particular weight off your shoulders right now! It can almost be humorous how long the list of LDS myth is but sad to recognize how much of it we allow to burden our progress and spirituality. The thing that bothers me the most is that when the Church is pressed about their plural marriage past, the response is to distance it as a long-since abandoned practice – almost responding as if it is foolish and uninformed for anyone to even mention it anymore. AND YET, LDS men are being sealed to multiple women in the temple in the case of death or divorce of a previous spouse. And of course LDS women can only be sealed to one man on this earth regardless of circumstances. I don’t think anyone can deny this is a relic of plural marriage and an indication that the doctrine remains at least in a spiritual/sealing sense. I disagree with the official position on gay marriage as well as any past or current plural marriage practice (sealing or actual). But of course I respect the Church’s right to hold these positions. I just do find some irony and dishonesty in a sense when we take such a leadership role on gay marriage issues.
Welcome Kyle. I’ll be blunt and simply say that, while I love the church like everyone else here, I believe they are currently holding to an incorrect and man/culture/tradition driven policy toward gays. I have found comfort in carving out a testimony that works for me while at the same time feeling it has been accepted by the Lord. Best of luck to you and again welcome.
Welcome! It is okay to be in and love the Gospel and the Church differently than you may have before learning the things you have. It actually has allowed me to trust myself and develop my own strength and spirituality much more. It was easy before. Everything I had to do and believe were handed to me on a silver platter. Now it is between me and the Savior. That is both exciting and difficult. I believe it requires a much closer relationship with the Lord. I hope both you and your husband can find your place in this wonderful Church regardless of what you have learned about history and doctrine. You can come out of this with a richer and personalized testimony and understanding of the Gospel. I think it is a journey that will last well into the next life but this board is a great resource.
Good luck!
Welcome! It can be a difficult process to trust that the Savior actually trusts us. But I strongly believe that He trusts us to do our best and to live the Gospel in a way that truly resonates with the spirit, mind and personality he gave us. He also trusts us to live it within the circumstances we find ourselves in throughout life. As you mentioned, prayer is key to this process of finding our own way. Prayer and humility is key to not using our personal journey as an excuse just to live an easier or more exciting life. We were created with different personalities and are given different life experiences. My personality is one that simply CANNOT allow me to “bow my head and say yes.” I have to push and wonder and feel okay doubting and even not living what I do not currently have a testimony of. To try otherwise would drive me from the Church while being able to live the Gospel in a way that honors who I am allows me to remain. But I have strong faith that the Lord respects and accepts my testimony as long as I am being humble, sincere and constantly seeking His guidance – even if at the moment there are many things I simply an usure about. I think that is the key to our growth – and the atonement.
Good luck!
I have been impressed with the missionary process used by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. There is an adult who has regularly dropped by to briefly say hello and leave the monthly Watchtower pamphlet. He seems to be the lead missionary in my area as he often has a different adult accompany him and he seems to do most of the talking. It appears that most active JW’s are asked to put in some regular missionary time. Anyway, I have been impressed with the way this individual remembers my name and little tidbits about my work and family and tries to relate them to a short “message” he gives me on my doorstep monthly. Obviously I have no interest in attending his church but it has made me wonder what affect this type of process would have if used in our church in a formalized systematic way – adults occassonally going door to door to leave a short message, drop off some reading material and basically just say I am your neighbor and hello. I can see how if someone were looking for a church to investigate they would have to reflect positively on their visits from the JWs.
We have grown up to believe that a testimony has to look and sound a certain way. But the Lord accepts us and our testimony right where it is. He only expects us to remain humble and open to our testimony continuing to grow and mature. Many members unfortunately do not know how to respond to other members who may have a non-traditional testimony. But that’s okay. We need to understand that is simply where they are too. They are doing their best to successfully navigate this experience of life just like we are. In other words, we need to be compassionate with ourselves and with our fellow members of the Church. Welcome! You said: “I now focus on the things that I love and enjoy about the Church rather than the things I find uncomfortable and just take them as they are.”
That is EXACTLY where I am as well. Sometimes it seems my testimony is focused soley on my Heavenly Parents, the Savior and His atonement and the principle of service. And I believe the Lord accepts that testimony completely. Sometimes I can go through an entire 3-hour block and wonder if I fully accept anything I had just heard. But then I refocus on what I DO love and believe about the Gospel.
I believe that truly is enough for the Lord. Good luck and welcome!
