Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Welcome – I know exactly what you are going through. I beat myself up for years wondering if I had truly repented and thought the answer was to contantly run to the Bishop. I was finally able to let go and forgive myself once I truly learned about the Atonement. The Savior atoned for every single thing we have done. It MAY be that we need to do some additional things to complete the repentance process but I am not convinced that the Lord really requires ANYTHING except our sincere remorse (through prayer) and efforts to simply continue to do our best – understanding that we WILL stumble again. I believe we put the weight of guilt upon ourselves. The Savior wants us to move on and do our best IMMEDIATELY. That is what taking the sacrament each Sunday is about. We tend to resist the immediate grace and atonement through our human nature. The Lord simply wants our best efforts and sincere desire to improve in return for his wonderful atonement. He has no interest in seeing us beat ourselves up. I say we work on giving him what he wants and just accept his instant forgiveness with humility and gratitude. Good luck and welcome!
I also believe the type of sin does not change what the Lord requires – sincerity and an effort to improve. I think we humans have put additional requirements on different sins.
Like many of us, I have served a mission and had missionaries in my home many times. I think the missionaries are perfect FOR SOME INVESTIGATORS. There are others that know a great deal about the Church and need something more than the standard lessons or at least need to be taught by someone who understands the doctrinal and historical concerns they may have. Some need more than the standard TBM response to these concerns. They need an empathetic response that I think is rare in the Church in general not just with our young missionaries. Most missionaries are not equiped to teach someone who is well educated in the many concerns discussed on this board. In other words, some investigators need to be taught through a combination of the spirit, common sense,and empathy. I fear that not many 19-21 year olds have the life experiences, insight and knowledge to do that. The practice of missionary splits with older more experienced members may provide that balance but there are probably few older members equiped to provide this to a certain type of investigator.
No question that a mission is a wonderful learning opportunity for the missionary. I wonder if the actual results of the missionary program denote success? The Church is in reality growing slowly and the activity/retention rate is quite low. If you look at it from “the worth of one soul” perspective then the missionary program is a smashing success. If you look at it more from a corporate standpoint – I’m not so sure.
I find that I am confronted with the reality that I have a testimony of some things Joseph taught and are included in the Book of Mormon and yet there are other things that I simply do not accept or at least admit I do not currently understand. So I accept and appreciate Joseph Smith for the things that he taught that are a part of my testimony – the reality of a loving Father and Mother in Heaven, the increased understanding of the extent of the Atonement. I accept and appreciate the Book of Mormon for it’s confirmation of the life, mission and atonement of the Savior. I have chosen to focus (often not very successfully I admit) on the things I DO believe. The things I do not believe or currently understand often creep up and try to sabotage the testimony I DO have. My struggle is to remain focused on what I can accept and do have a testimony of.
So Joseph Smith is a true prophet because he revealed important truths that are a part of my testimony. The Book of Mormon is true because it teaches aspects that are a part of my testimony. I try to focus on that and feel confident that the Lord accepts my testimony right where it is – no matter how it does or doesn’t compare to the testimony of others.
I know this is a late comment to this thread but I wanted to add a thought. I think many who come here are struggling with the idea of strict obedience to something (the WofW) they likely lost their testimony of or are at least questioning. One of the things that have been very helpful for me at StayLDS is reading different interpretations of WHY doing something or having faith in something can be personally beneficial in ways other than simply being obedient. Regarding the WofW, I now look at it as God’s suggestion that we be as healthy as we possibly can – physically, emotionally and spiritually. Do some things detailed in the WofW seem to have nothing to do with that? YES! Do I think JS likely copied at least partially from the Temperance Society documents of the day? PROBABLY! Are there some things that could be added that would be much more relevant to today (prescription abuse, obesity, exercise, etc.)? YES! But for me it is important to keep our eye on WHY or HOW the WofW or at least the spirit of it can benefit us. I can focus on being as healthy as possible and may find some aspects of the WofW helpful in that pursuit. But I CANNOT obey the WofW just because I am told to.
So possible wording may be along the line of –
“It may be helpful to find ways that the spirit of the Word of Wisdom can benefit you and your family. How can you become more healthy? Some specific aspects of the Word of Wisdom may be beneficial to you in becoming a more healthy individual. Some other things like regular exercise and weight control may also be necessary to helping you better live the spirit of overall improved health.”
SilentDawning – I haven’t had time to respond to your comment about “top down” versus “bottom up” approaches. I have thought a lot about it though and think it is an excellent question. There is no question mine is a bottom up faith at the moment. I think I would like to respond in more detail by starting another thread shortly. Thanks for your thoughts! Perhaps it is just the stage I am at right now. Perhaps it will be the way I always need to be given my unique personality and spirit. But I HAVE to be able to ‘pick and choose”. Perhaps that can be reframed instead as “focusing on those things within the Church/Gospel that allow me to progress in my spiritual development”. However it is expressed, I have chosen to live a life as a member of the Church that keeps me in the Church and progressing. I fear that too many who leave the Church did so because they felt it was an either/or proposition. That there was no other way to be a member. I respect that this way probably does not work for the vast majority of active, committed members and certainly not for 99% of Church leadership. But at the end of the day I love the Church and must be in it in a way that resonates with my spirit and personality. I absolutely respect if that does not seem to fit for others. I respect that you are struggling to find a way in which it works for you.
It is very dificult particularly as a life-long Mormon to get to the place where you can say that the rules, traditions, policies, etc. are not mandatory to my salvation. Only the the Atonement is. After ten years or so of struggling in stage 4 and now trying to reach a positive stage 5, I still feel tugs of doubt or guilt about my decision to pick and choose what aspects of the Church “work” for me personally. But I also know I can NEVER go back to unquestioned obedience to all that is asked at least by the Church as an institution. I hope I am humble enough to do all that is asked of me by the Lord through my personal journey to seek His guidance and direction. But I recognize that MOST active members benefit greatly from the structure and certainty provided by the Church. I’m not sure it is so complicated to them. Rather it is a relief that they know exactly what they need to do. Even if that absolutely does not work for me.
I have decided that I can no longer ask the question “is the Church TRUE” or “does the LDS Church contain the fullness of the Gospel”. I know that we have been programmed since birth or since our conversion to ask these questions. But that doesn’t mean that we HAVE to or SHOULD ask those questions. We can reframe our questions and as a result our experience in the LDS faith in a way that strengthens us, allows us to grow and become more Christlike – which is the very reason for the Gospel. So I am now trying to ask a different question. I have reframed not only the question but as a result hopefully my entire experience as a Mormon. The question I am seeking to answer for myself now is – what teachings contained in the LDS faith resonate with me as a unique individual child of God with a unique spirit, personality, needs, and life experiences? In other words, what aspects of the LDS Church are true FOR ME. What aspects will help me become a more loving, honest, charitable father, son, brother, and person in general. Some aspects simply DO NOT. Therefore, I readily discard them – not in a negative, critical way but by focusing soley on those aspects of the Gospel that DO help me in my journey here on this earth. Hopefully in doing this I remain open that some day the spirit will teach me what I need to know about those “disgarded” aspects of history, doctrine, practice or policy so that they can become a part of my testimony or tool box for growth. But I am okay if that never occurs in this life and if certain things simply remain outside of my testimony in this life.
While some leaders and members of the Church may be critical of this approach, I believe that is because they only know one approach – one type of question to ask. Reframing the questions or their experience in the Church is foreign and even threatening. I personally KNOW that the Lord accepts this approach for me. My challenge is to remain (or become) humble and open to the Spirit. I have left behind the “structured” aspects of the Church in which all the answers, all the things that I should do, wear, eat and drink on a daily basis are provided through a coorelated church manual. The idea that all the answers are contained in this nice, neat package provided by the church simply did not and does not work for me. Not in a rebellious way but it does not work given the type of unique individual the Lord created me to be. Too much in that package actually detracts from me becoming who I need to become. The Lord did not create cookie-cutter children and as a result is okay if some of us need different approaches in our journey here on this earth.
However, I know that the structure and certainty provided through the Church is a wonderful form of support and guidace for MOST active members of the Church. I in no way criticize that. It simply does not work for me to just in essence “bow my head and say yes”. If I had to I would have to leave this Church. This is my spiritual philosophy as someone who is committed to continuing my journey in life as a member of the LDS Church. It means I am not in the majority at Church. It means I will probably never be a leader in my ward (thank heavens), but I hope it means that I will someday be able to tell my Heavenly Parents that I did my very best while here on this earth.
Not to take this in a different direction, but I often reflect on this in terms of what “other” LDS beliefs or practices I find as ridiculous or unacceptable in relation to those I find reasonable and am able to accept. In other words, this process is not just a judgement of “other” belief systems external to our own but also an internal practice as we work through our own beliefs. What is going to remain on my LDS plate as I finally get to the end of the buffet line? For example, I struggle with the idea that the Book of Mormon is an actual and accurate history of the people, places and events described. My primary purpose for this doubt is my belief that there is an extreme lack of direct evidence for those assertions. There may be a great deal of circumstantial evidence but the process I observe some using to make that evidence fit often causes even further doubt in me.
BUT, I have an strong testimony that Jesus Christ took upon himself my sins, weaknesses and affirmities in the Garden. I similarly believe that I have Heavenly Parents who live and love me. Both of those convictions similarly have absolutely NO direct evidence to support them. My spiritual experiences and promptings from the Spirit are my evidence. But they would not pass any kind of objective, scientific criteria. And why is that not enough for me when it comes to the historical nature of the Book of Mormon and other things I struggle to find reasonable?
So this idea of seeing “other” beliefs outside of our own faith system as ridiculous reiterated for me my personal path of learning what I can accept and believe in this church and what “other” things within the church I cannot – or find “ridiculous” or unreasonable. I wonder if it follows a similar process that others follow when accepting their belief system in general while rejecting “others” as ridiculous?
Sorry if I was off point but this is what hit me when reading your post.
Welcome! Your concerns about Joseph Smith resonate with me as well. I too have struggled with the different versions of the First Vision. As someone new myself, I found it very helpful to listen to the recordings on the Stages of Faith and read the posts regarding it as well. I realized that I could remain stuck in the bewilderment and even anger phase (stage 4) forever if I didn’t actively ask the Lord to help me see things differently. My choice was to remain in the Church but I am having to reframe almost all I have known and thought about the church. It is impossible to unlearn what you now know about church history and troubling doctrines but you can find a different way of viewing them – a way that allows you to find the Gospel, the Savior, and the Atonement within it all – possibly in a much more real way than ever. I am just at the tip of the iceberg but I am inspired and encouraged by reading these comments. It seems that many here are far along in that process and I find strength in what they say. It may help to search issues on this site that are important to you and read the posts related to that. For example, I would assume a good discussion or two regarding the versions of the First Vision have taken place here.
Good luck!
Personally, I would like to see only ONE TR question. It would go something like this – “Are you actively seeking to access the Atonement of Jesus Christ by loving and serving those in your life and through actively seeking a personal relationship with and direction from your Heavenly Parents and the Savior?” If yes, feel free to let the temple assist you in that process. But since anything like that is a ways off, I actually would like to see a Hometeaching type of question required for a TR. And I would LOVE to see it replace questions such as the WofW, do you wear your garments and do you believe in the BofM? At least, if done correctly and with the right intent, Hometeaching can encourage us to look out for, serve and love at least one family in the ward.
Hello Pearl, I resonate a great deal with what seems to be your feelings of guilt or at least uncertainty regarding what you should do and believe. We are both new here but I have visited this site often while not a registered member unil now and have no doubt that this is the place to be to learn and grow in a safe, spiritual, supportive way. These comments have motivated me to reveiw the stages of faith as they seem so vital and often referred to in comments.
My biggest challenge – because I am able to work from home – is that I need to find a way to stay away from this site long enough to actually get my work done!
Excellent conversation! Like most, I have also felt what I interpreted as the Spirit in a variety of settings. I have had maybe 6 or 7 opportunities to visit christian church services that engage in a “praise” portion of the meeting – rather upbeat songs (usually praising Christ) accompanied by a band with the congregation standing, singing, clapping and waiving their arms to varying degrees. Unexpectedly, I felt an immediate and overwhelming rush of the spirit when participating. This occurred every time and to the same intense degree. In my 43 years as a member of the Church, I have never experienced even a portion of this overwhelming sense of the spirit when singing standard LDS hymns. Granted we LDS have never been accused of being overly enthuiastic or upbeat while singing our hymns but this had a profound effect on my understanding of the spirit. I have also been interested in the numerous stories I have heard along the lines of the young RM feeling the spirit that “she was the one” on the second date. I think one area in particular that our youth need to be cautioned is in confusing the spirit for natural emotion or “butterflies” of early courtship. Or at least in being able to slow down long enough to both enjoy and distinguish between the two.
It really is interesting that literally the exact same feeling that accompanies a heart felt prayer or religious talk also accompanies a song, book, movie, view of nature, or any number of things in our life that can be considered quite seperate from our LDS rituals. And even more interesting at least for me to note is that I have experienced what I consider to be the spirit more through expriences removed from the LDS Church than those experinces within it.
I also think you handled this well. I have always been interested in the various ways LDS handle themselves around alcohol. whether it be in a situation like your’s or at a social event where alcohol is served. I recently attended a wedding reception held by a part member family. Many guests were LDS and many were not. It was as if the room was divided in half – the LDS sitting in one part drinking punch and the non-LDS in another drinking alcohol. I was one of the few LDS I observed mingling with both. My guess is that many stereotypes were reinforced that evening and most were not positive. As an active member who does not have a problem with drinking alcohol on occassion myself, I tend to go back and forth between feeling guilty – like I am not sending a positive message about members when I socially drink with non-members – and feeling like there is something positive in being honest about who I am. It is interesting that I have actually had several people over the years express positive impressions toward the Church because they claim I lead them to think Mormons can be “normal” and not the uptight stereotypes they had perceived. Of course I recognize that many members would find my use of alcohol around non-members as the epitome of poor missionary work. Such is the life of a confused Mormon I suppose.
I appeciate this concept of “doing” over “thinking” a great deal. For years I have found myself almost “stuck” in the need to think through and reconcile LDS historical and doctrinal issues. I do so from a much more positive mindset today than in the past but I continually feel prompted by the spirit to replace the time I spend with the mental struggle of “thinking” through these concerns by “doing”. I regularly feel the Lord telling me that He approves of my testimony as it is, accepts that there are things related to the LDS faith that I currently struggle with or cannot accept, and that He is now expecting me to get up and “do” in the form of service and love for family and my fellow members as well as nonmembers. I have a hunch that through love and service I may find answers and insight that pondering, researching and stewing will never provide. Thanks Nathan!
