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I have to say that I have really enjoyed this thread. Over the past few years, my testimony of the WoW has been shifting. It started by focusing on some of the things on the do list instead of the do not list (funny thing is I never clued into the mild drinks made of barley). As I realized how much deeper it was than just the don’t list, I realized how narrow our view is, and how little any of us follow the WoW. We will gorge ourselves on unhealthy food, avoid vegetables and eat copious amounts of meat, but judge those who occasionally (or not so occasionally) drink beer or tea. Then I started to realize how arbitrary (and skewed) so many of the rules around it are, and how these rules have evolved. Don’t drink hot drinks. Not all hot drinks. Just coffee and tea. But not all tea is bad. Just tea that comes from the tea plant. I don’t see how the official interpretation of the WoW is that far off of “the philosophies of man, mingled with scripture.”
I have recently added Yerba Maté to my collection of herbal teas. As I tend to with any hot drink, I wondered if it was legit at first. It was recommended to me for the health benefits, but my mind has been conditioned to suspect any new hot drink. As I though about it, i concluded that if the WoW is so convoluted that God considered iced tea a hot drinks, that I wasn’t going to worry about it anymore. Make sure I can pass off on the somewhat arbitrary list for the temple and focus on healthy eating and I will be fine.
It’s not like I am even looking for a reason to drink coffee, tea, alcohol etc. Which is exactly what most LDS members would expect if someone is questioning the WoW, I just see holes in it. It has been 18 years since I put that stuff behind me, and I am frankly not interested in venturing back there. But if I did start drinking mild drinks made of barley…would it matter? Probably not, unless the judgement peers weighed heavy on me.
Great analogy, and as such it deserves a bump. As long as I can find bricks, I will try to ignore the sand.
I have a hard time with the concept. If parents can choose beforehand, what about unwanted teenage or street pregnancies? Rape? Or those who choose not to have kids? hawkgrrrl wrote:I had a friend who was a bishop in West Valley Utah. His stake did a survey among the youth asking them to rank various sins in order of severity. The outcomes were somewhat shocking – more kids considered profanity a serious sin than several of the violations of chastity!
Reminds me of a joke we used to tell.
What did the good Mormon girl do when she caught her boyfriend smoking a cigarette? …she put her clothes back on and dumped him.
I questioned my deacons in class last year. What is more serious, and they all said getting drunk was worse than sex.
Old-Timer wrote:Maybe YOU were impressed to teach what YOU taught to YOUR students.
Good point. In fact, if I had watched the video prior to the lesson, I may not have let the lesson go there and been able to share those thoughts.
The tone of the video still kills a little piece of me. There are times when I am hopeful for positive change in the church. Then I see stuff like this video, or the Packer voting on gender video and I am bothered that this is part of the new curriculum. It was easier to overlook the antiquated old lessons. But knowing that time, effort and tithing dollars go into this is frustrating.
On a positive note, I can see how this new program really gives flexibility to teach the topics needed. A lesson like this, could have easily been redirected to teach about any rules as needed. I just happened to stumble down the road of chastity and most pernicious evil known as profanity.
😈 Ok my last rant was a bit of of a rant. I have to agree with Ray, wthat the general idea of a call for tolerance is needed. I think the leaders of the church are generally, but not always, ahead of the curve on these kinds of things. It is to bad he had to include the but. We need to be tolerant, but… Zealous members need to hear it straight up, not with a big but.
I will be honest, I had a hard time finishing the article. The lady half turned to skimming & I might have skipped the last quarter. It seems he wants a tolerance and understanding from atheists that he and most Christians are not willing to reciprocate.
I had to roll my eyes at the part where he included the following things in his list of signs of moral decay; swearing, dressing immodest, tattoos, and piercing. Really these are among the biggest troubles in society? Nit picking at these items while discussing tolerance has some irony, especially when he later asserted profanity as a characteristic of atheism.
In cases such as these, there is definitely room for moral relativism. I do believe that we need to stand up for what we believe is right, but only when belief crosses into the realm of behavior, and only when that behavior interferes with the rights of another person. This I believe would fall in line with the articles of faith.
This article didn’t make me have a huge desire to renew the Ensign subscription.
For me it us just another thing on the shelf that could cause it to collapse. Yes, people and even leaders are allowed to make mistakes, but combine cover up and denial and it starts to weigh heavier on that shelf. There are many similar examples, each adding weight. I would rather keep president Monson than see him retire, isn’t BKP up next? Not sure I want to go there. SamBee wrote:The overcrowding is not universal though. Canada, New Zealand, Sweden, Argentina, Russia… none of these are overpopulated.
Shhhh…we don’t want the word to get out. Canada it’s full, tell your friends.
I thought his 5 Myths was an attempt at using his active status and his story to build a bridge between the disaffected and the TBM crowd. It is the type of presentation I would really like to show my parents who are recently returned missionaries who are filled with the RM zeal (read judgment) towards the disaffected. If regular active members could understand the complexity and sincerity of a faith crisis it would be beneficial to most people who stumble upon this site.
The thing I struggle with about meditation vs prayer is that I can actually feel something with meditation. With prayer I am pushing into 3 years of just talking to a bedroom wall named God. No answers, no feeling, no reciprocal communication. BTW prayer has it’s fair share of negative stories too. I can think of a family member of an old girlfriend who through prayer and fasting was inspired to retreat to into the mountains to spend the winter with no gear or shelter. She died and her husband didn’t tell the authorities for quite some time due to the guidance of the spirit.
Seems to me that anytime we give ourselves over to the supernatural and abandon common sense things can spiral out of control.
Million dollar experience I wouldn’t pay another penny for. Go because you want to. If you go for any other reason it will be a waste of time/money. Too many people out there for the wrong reasons.
I am still figuring out the boomerang. I have good weeks and then weeks like this one. Sunday I came home from church frustrated and not wanting to return, then I went to the youth activity on Tuesday where in a discussion with the other leaders I realized that I am not like them. It is difficult to feel like I belong. It is hard to give up so much precious time to be with them (this month has me with the youth 3-4 days a week, most weeks). I am just trying to remind myself that there are good rewarding weeks, sometimes just moments, that I can hold on to. One of those moments was on the way home from the youth activity on Tuesday. One of the young men who overheard the conversation between the other leaders and I said “I don’t agree with Brother xxxx, not everyone fits into the boxes that we try to make for them.” After that I had a good talk with him about roles, norms and expectations assigned to us based on our gender and church membership. Times like that help me realize that I need to be there sometimes.
Meanwhile in the backseat of my car, one of the young women was explaining to her friend about our beliefs in a way that only
Saturday’s Warrior
