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In my early 20s, when a bishop trying his best though making a mistake while wielding the mantle of his office smashed the glass bubble I had built up with a giant sledgehammer. The feelings of guilt, shame, and confusion richoched inside of me until my late 20s when realized that the broken glass was destroying my spiritual feet. I can’t blame the church entirely – (although it’s a whale of a lot of fun to try
I am sorry for your loss. But, if you were to say I didn’t understand, you would be right. I don’t think there is an answer for the bad things that happen in life. I mean, it appears adequate, until we are thrust into hell by something that happens. The achilles heel of christianity I guess. We espouse God to be good and all powerful, and yet awful things happen. But, we can ignore this fact until the unspeakable happens to us. I would like to recommend CS Lewis’ “A Grief Observed”. For me at least, it helped that someone else was able to speak some of what I felt inside. Also, the videos by Howard Storm on youtube where it talks about what Jesus is like also helped me. And above all that Jesus does not want bad things to happen to us. That unlike what I’d been taught all my life, every trial wasn’t good or approved of by Jesus. Some things I think he is as sad to see them happen as we are. After I got some of my anger out at Jesus and God, it helped to be assured of what I still wanted to believe – that they were good and kind. If I were to offer one piece of advice, it would be to let happiness in again when it comes knocking. Don’t let pain keep the curtains of happiness drawn for too long.
God Bless.
I read/have read a lot of near death experiences. Lots of them are good. Some are not so great. The ones I love the most are the ones that talk about what Jesus is like. This one goes into that and to me shows the mercy and love and nature of Jesus in a way that none other has. In a world that believes Jesus damns people to hell, hates us, or is the one that just lets bad things happen without any emotion, this video clarifies it all. Yes, it is long, but worth it in every way. At least it was for me. I really can relate to what you say. I don’t think I hate them quite so much anymore, but gosh, I sure used to! I think the main reason I don’t as much any longer is merely because I don’t interact with them so much. That is my main reason for ‘leaving’ the church. I go to sacrament meeting on Sunday – not even all of it – and sit outside in the foyer (yes, I’m one of those weirdos) – but that’s it. As I’ve looked back on it, the reason I hated them so so much was because they held power over me. I guess that really is my main beef with the church – that it uses a person’s feeling about themselves to get them to do what it wants them to do. Everyone does this I guess, but the church is sort of on another level. When somebody who you value makes you feel like you’re not good enough. There’s really nothing you can do that hurts another person worse. It’s why Laman and Lemuel hated Nephi – and honestly, I can’t say I blame them. I think anyone who had someone talk to them like Nephi talked to Laman and Lemuel would want to punch him in the nose It’s probably as much me as it is the church. There are plenty of emotionally healthy and happy people in the church. But I don’t think the church is very good at accepting differences. It would rather see a person being ‘right’ more than it wants that person to feel accepted. And I’m not in agreement on this point. I love both Sister Superior and Father O’Mally in the Bells of St Mary’s, but I think Father O’Mally had it right. But maybe God needs both kinds.
My situation is admittedly different. It’s more my parents talking to their child and asking them similar, more pointed questions – so I guess in reverse. However, I (think) I can somewhat understand and commiserate with some of the feelings you have. In my case, my parents want to change me because they feel that I am ‘wrong’ – that without the church, I’ll never be as good or as whole or as complete as I would be with it. As you know, this hurts – and hurts pretty bad. Probably especially bad when it comes from your son. Anyways, I’ll never be able to say anything to them to make them think I’m OK. However, I think you can show your son that you are good. If he sees you being kind and compassionate towards others, that’s going to make him think, in a way that words never will. I think there is something deep inside of us all that realizes that kindness and compassion are the really important things. I mean, not many mormons (or protestants) would start a bible bashing session with Mother Theresa in an attempt to convince her of the error of her catholic ways – or disagree that she’s going to end up in heaven.
And in my opinion, if your son goes through life thinking that the church is the really important thing, he’s going to eventually end up on a site like this after a bishop having a power trip, stake president making a bad mistake, etc., – sends him into the faith crisis spiral that many of the people here experienced (myself included) – as they go through the very difficult process of separating a perfect God from an imperfect church, run by imperfect people (though I’ll absolutely agree that this church does a heck of a lot of good).
DarkJedi wrote:Old-Timer wrote:I had an interesting experience on Sunday while attending a ward in Utah.
A woman in Sunday School talked about an experience praying to find her keys after four days of not being about to find them, and she ended her story with the following statement, to the best of my memory:
Quote:“I know it’s a little thing that doesn’t mean anything to others, but it helps me remember that God will help me when I face much bigger challenges. I tend to get stressed out and forget how much I have appreciated the help when I needed it most.”
I think there is something powerful and profound in that – particularly the idea that some people really need and actually are blessed by seeing blessings in things others see as silly or even ridiculous.
Who am I to say she wasn’t right – and, more importantly, why would I feel the need to insist that she wasn’t? When I do that, am I really any different than those who insist everyone can have that sort of experience if only they are faithful enough? Aren’t both positions exclusive and dismissive in nature?
I don’t disagree, Ray, but God’s apparent failure to help in the bigger things is why I am where I am. Were that not the case, I would not have had a crisis of faith. From what I read here, I am not unusual.
Thank-you DJ for saying this. I have felt the same way. In “A Grief Observed”, CS Lewis, after losing his wife of only a few years, wrote:
“Not that I am (I think) in much danger of ceasing to believe in God. The real danger is of coming to believe such dreadful things about Him. The conclusion I dread is not ‘So there’s no God after all,’ but ‘So this is what God’s really like. Deceive yourself no longer.”
Right or wrong, that is the danger I feel when I hear stories like about God helping somebody find a boat – and probably why my desire is to dismiss them. A friend’s daughter recently hung herself in their basement. She was 17 years old. Her parents found her. Doesn’t it point to some terrible conclusions about God? That He will assist in boat finding and yet not prompt somebody to come and help a girl who will commit suicide? Or could not He has at least caused her to be killed in a car accident a few days prior to suicide, if He knew she was going to do it anyways? At least spare the effects on the family of the suicide?
I don’t know what you went through – but I am sure it was awful. I know what it took to bring me to my faith crisis – and for me, I would never bring a child into the world as a result. The awful hell they might go through I just can never imagine the joys of life being worth the risk. If I had known what the past 10 years would have been like, I’d never have accepted treatment for the disease diagnosed in me. I guess I am fortunate though. I still think that most of the time, God is good and kind. I truly have pity for the people which have passed through so much suffering as to drive even that hope out of their souls. I often wonder what God’s answer will be when I see Him. This is a short – almost stupid – clip – but I get a great deal of comfort out of it. When the man with the warped hand looks up into Jesus’ eyes, as if to say, “You are healing my hand, but what about healing this emotional destruction, social isolation, loneliness, and despair that having only 1 hand has caused in me. And when Jesus looks at him. Something about that gaze. I know it’s acting, but still – something about it. I think that will be my answer for why. And I think it will be good enough at that time. I can still see Jesus and believe that there is a good reason for why. Or maybe not a good reason – but at least not a bad ‘I did this to you on purpose’, or ‘I don’t care that this happened to you’ reason.
I honestly think the truth is that nobody knows. I don’t know why God lets things happen the way they do. Why didn’t God step in and save you from your abusive husband? Why did God remain quiet when Jews were thrown into human ovens? Why didn’t the boy in DarkJedi’s story get rescued? I don’t know. Maybe there are some people who genuinely know. I tend to think that many if not most of the people who say they understand don’t really – either because in your case they don’t understand what it means to see your children’s sense of worth destroyed or because of an abusive husband – or because they haven’t thought about it really deeply. It also could be that the people like us who suffer have done something to deserve it, or are rejecting God’s help when he attempts to give it to us. But for me, I have found that Jesus won’t let me hate Him. After a hellish week, I’ll feel calm or be helped in some way. Something to keep me going. I guess that is a good sign. There is something about God that I cannot reject. He keeps knocking on my door. I tend to think there is a good reason we’ll find out eventually as to why this life is hell – and it isn’t hell all the time. It is most of the time for some and some of the time for most (another incongruity I don’t understand). Until then, I guess I just keep limping along.
A great article. I do agree here. I think everyone has prayed to God for something that was right – and not gotten it. And not something that was just ‘not right for us at the time’. I have come to the conclusion that God may be in control, but the times that He intervenes are extremely rare. Not necessarily because He doesn’t want to, but maybe God can’t control consequences. God couldn’t stop the man’s father from beating the boy. He couldn’t force his grandparents to give him a home away from the abuse. I think He does help us deal with the consequences. But he doesn’t go around waving a magic wand to make consequences disappear. I also agree on some of the passages in the old testament. That isn’t the God I know. I’ll be the first one to admit I could be wrong. Maybe it’s a side of God I don’t know yet. Though I must admit, if I am wrong, I still don’t want to get to know that part of God.
Mike wrote:intothelight, I like what you said:
Quote:I’ve begged and pleated, threatened, asked, prayed, hoped, for some of the pain to be removed. Not even for healing – I’m ready to go – just for less pain. Many times – even most – nothing. Radio silence. But then, a small thing comes and makes me think God hasn’t really forgotten or doesn’t care. Why? My honest answer is that I don’t know. I don’t think many people do know. I’m suspicious of anyone who says they know something absolutely. I guess I view my beliefs now as being all relative to what they’ve been pitted against. I believe that God is good, until something so terrible happens, or I say something is wrong until the consequences exceed a certain threshold. Like peeling back the layers of an onion.
When I was going through my FC, I wanted answers to my prayers & I wanted comfort. All I seemed to get was BLACK silence. Then the only emotion I seemed to have was anger. Now, as I look back today, I reacted like a spoiled 2 year old child who, when things didn’t go the way I expected, I cried, stomped my feet, held my breath until my face turned blue. Then blamed God. Pain can be physical, emotional, & spiritual. Or a combination of things. My little understanding is, how long the recovery is depends more on us than it does on God’s will to open the heavens & give us peace.
You seem to be handling your situation reasonably well. I wish I could take some of your pain for even a moment. I wish you all the best.
Certainly kind of you. But, God definitely gives relief. I guess the childish would-be heroic martyr part of me wants Him to be more consistent. Like, “If you are not going to help me all the time, then I NEVER want your help.” No doubt, we all act just like 2 year olds when we are adults. Just the objects of our childish behavior are either hidden or tolerated by the public at large.
I also share your feeling that the limiting factor in this and the next life will not be God, but will be us. It won’t be God passing a judgment on us that limits our ability to be happy, but our ability to accept happiness.
I always have loved CS Lewis, and one of his quotes,
“There is always something they insist on keeping, even at the price of misery. There is always something they prefer to joy – that is, to reality.”
But it’s odd. When I see a small child crying now over the loss of a toy, I don’t dismiss their pain quite as summarily as I used to. I wonder how much pain they are really feeling in the moment. Perhaps it is as great as the pain we feel as adults and as you say, they are just better at getting past it quickly and letting go of it’s effects than we are.
And not to digress too far from the original thread, I’ve been thinking. I know I many times have the feeling that God’s love for us is somehow in a lockstep linear progression to the same way I place value on things. For example, God’s love for the person to whom he gives $2000 must be twice as much as the love He feels for the person that He only gives $1000 to. I am constantly comparing my life with others and then calling God into a courtroom and asking Him why what I view as evidences of His love are not equal on a worldly level. But perhaps God doesn’t think that way. Perhaps God doesn’t care whether he uses a $0.50 coupon on the store floor, a favorite song on a radio program, or a $2000 delta on a boat price to give the feeling to His children that He hasn’t forgotten them and is concerned. I imagine the only thing that has significance to Him is the effect of the tool, and not the tool itself. Though again, the reason for what appears an absence of any action at all in the things most critically important to us – I don’t understand. I have a great deal I need to learn from those who can experience pain of such a magnitude and yet remain as anchored in their trust and love of God as if there were no pain.
DarkJedi – thank-you for writing this. I also wonder about these things. Everyone talks about how God is involved in tiny things in our lives. But shouldn’t it follow that if He cares about the small ones, that He would care so much more about the big ones? As an example, I have a terminal disease. Nothing is certain, but I doubt I have a lot of time left. I’ve begged and pleated, threatened, asked, prayed, hoped, for some of the pain to be removed. Not even for healing – I’m ready to go – just for less pain. Many times – even most – nothing. Radio silence. But then, a small thing comes and makes me think God hasn’t really forgotten or doesn’t care. Why? My honest answer is that I don’t know. I don’t think many people do know. I’m suspicious of anyone who says they know something absolutely. I guess I view my beliefs now as being all relative to what they’ve been pitted against. I believe that God is good, until something so terrible happens, or I say something is wrong until the consequences exceed a certain threshold. Like peeling back the layers of an onion. You don’t see the rotten spot on the outside. Maybe there are “onions” within me that are pure all the way through, but I doubt there are many. I have some plausible explanations that I come up with as the emotional and physical wounds heal for a bit that make sense (like the things that are really important with God may not be the same things as us, He has to just let things happen in this earth), but they don’t seem so reasonable again when you’re in the midst of the pain. I’m going round and round in a constant circle confusing, loving, hating, and blaming God. But it’s a circle (albeit lopsided), and not a spiral going further and further from Him. And I think I know it would be a spiral away from and not a lopsided circle if God weren’t there correcting the path on occasion. Does it make sense that God would ignore the prayers of a mother in Africa for $10 to buy a medicine that will save her child and yet at the same moment save thousands of dollars for a woman buying a boat? No, of course that doesn’t make sense. I have a lot of questions I’m going to ask God and Jesus. But in my life, there seem to be sprinkled throughout enough feelings and occurrences that keep me coming back to Him after I’ve gotten mad and written Him off as an uncaring and unfair being.
Old-Timer wrote:I agree with the general points of your comment, intothelight, but I need to say one thing:
Quote:
the member who disagrees with an accepted church doctrine publicly, almost 100% of the time will not stay a member for long – usually by choice, occasionally by disciplinary council.That depends totally on what you mean by “publicly” and how the disagreement is worded – and the nature of the doctrine.
There are many people who write publicly throughout the Bloggernacle, for example, using their real names, about things with which they disagree (even to saying they believe a practice or doctrine is wrong and should be changed) and remain very active in the Church. There are many people who talk in church meetings about some things with which they disagree and remain active in the Church. Seriously, I think most members who are struggling with a faith crisis / transition would be surprised at how much public disagreement occurs throughout the Church.
Often, especially concerning disciplinary action, it’s not exactly what is said that causes the separation; it’s how it is said and the degree of insistence that others agree that is the core issue. It also depends too heavily on the local leadership and if they have a doctrinal stick up their hindquarters – but I’ve heard quite a few statements of disagreement throughout my life even in wards with hardline Bishops. The people simply have spoken calmly and softly – and not been seen as “challenging” the Church or “demanding” change (or trying to “convert” others to their viewpoint).
I am glad you’ve had a better experience than have I. All I know is what happened to me and most of the other people I know when they’ve given even the slightest hint to other hard-core members that they disagree with the doctrine. I am admittedly thin-skinned, so I do agree you are right that others would push through. I have a lot of respect for those who can. But it is interesting to note that virtually 100% of the members here choose aliases and not their real names to register – and wouldn’t think of posting their real names if asked (and I am certainly among them
But I definitely stand corrected. There are numerous people who as you say publicly disagree and still stay in the church.
I can’t expect the church to throw it’s playbook in the furnace to avoid offending me – even if that’s what my actions portray too often – it’s just tragic that there are people damaged as a result. And the ones that don’t have a place to blow off steam like you’ve provided for us to do are the ones really being hurt the most. So again, thank-you.
You’re also not going to be arrested for wearing a seahawks hat on opening day at bronco stadium in Denver, – but if you’re expecting it to be anything better than extremely uncomfortable, you’re in for a really big surprise. The GAs can say whatever they want to say – but not even a directive from them is going to command away the fact that the member who disagrees with an accepted church doctrine publicly, almost 100% of the time will not stay a member for long – usually by choice, occasionally by disciplinary council. They don’t have to purge – it happens automatically. Anyone’s guess as to what they’d do if this natural purge didn’t take place on a large-scale basis. Not saying this is wrong or bad. The church is under no obligation to change for the better (or worse), in response to complaints by anyone. It’s just unfortunate that many really good, but imperfect people almost destroy themselves in trying separate Christ from imperfect people thrown together into an imperfect church. What I find is lacking in many members of the church is perspective. Things like putting missionary nametags on 3 year olds certainly doesn’t encourage or produce well-adjusted people. But neither does almost anything we do repeatedly in our loves – religious or not. And according to textbooks, there is no need to balance out something good and right in a person with bad – but I hope someone at a high level in the church thinks about what happens emotionally to many a good person when for whatever reason they don’t meet the ideal that while not publicly advocated, exists as plainly as the nose on your face. As CS Lewis said, you can’t “not call blue yellow to please those who insist on still having jaundice” – but if you are wielding the sword of truth as you happen to see it, you shouldn’t lose sight of the occasional collateral damage.
This definitely strikes a nerve with me. I understand where you are coming from. Details wouldn’t help here, but my situation is much the same. It’s taken me many years to get over it. And the many years taken wasn’t for a lack of trying. It really affected me a lot. In fact, I’m probably not completely over it. But I digress. Are many return missionaries totally conceited and inconsiderate blowhards? Yep, you bet. In the same breath, are there a lot of non-member 20-somethings that are totally conceited and considerate blowhards? Well, yes, there are as well. But it’s interesting, isn’t it? That the ones that went on a mission bother us so, so much more than the others. Why? Well, for me, I guess it’s because I felt like I was less for having not served a mission. That’s definitely what whacked into your brain from the time you say your first word in the church. And that’s hard. Doing something that makes another person feel they are of less worth has got to be one of the quickest ways to make an enemy (ie return missionaries bragging in sneaky ways about their having served around anyone who doesn’t wrap 30 feet of duct tape around their mouth). I wonder sometimes if Nephi’s relationship with his brothers might have been aided with a change in his behavior. But I guess what I am trying to convey is to let go of the thought that you having not served makes you less acceptable in the eyes of God, or anyone else whose opinion actually matters. It doesn’t. God has children everywhere. And when one man asked Jesus what he wanted him to do, Jesus’ response was to just “love the person you’re with”. And a black and white nametag doesn’t automatically increase your loving ability – or automatically make the people you’re with less in need of love and kindness than those around FT missionaries.
I really hope you find some peace. Just remember that the mission is not the end, but a means to an end – despite what feeling there may be to the contrary.
Thanks for the insights as always. I guess were I to be completely honest, I’d have to admit that me posting this infers that written between the lines is my deep down dislike of the church – basically I try to trivialize it and make sure it really isn’t true to make me feel better about disliking it. I don’t think anyone else’s comments illustrate they have this problem quite as much as I do, but c’est la vie. I talk about other churches being as good as ours, but never about ours being as good as others – if that makes any sense. I like one of the recent posts about trying to find good in the church – because there honestly is a lot of good that goes on in the church, despite any flaws it has. I’ve tried to explain my feeling that whether or not the church is true is of far less significance than many other things to my parents. Yeah, that’s not working.
What I think is tragic is that many (myself included, unfortunately), seem to focus on our differences. Rather than focus on what’s common between the religions we fixate on the differences – and perhaps blow their importance way out of proportion. We are all desperately crying out to be accepted for who we are, and at the same time simply won’t allow ourselves to rest until all the non-mormons are mormons, or for the hard-core haters for all mormons to be ex-mormons, or for the catholics until all mormons have become catholics. I’ve read a lot of near death experiences, and the universal feelings that most people seem to have are love (no surprise there) – but also total acceptance – for exactly who we are. Got to a be a reason God chose those two specifically.
Again, thanks for everyone’s thoughts. They provide a balance and confirmation that seems like it’s lacking otherwise.
Great information. Thanks All. I completely agree – there should be things on a record that protect others. I sort of wondered though if a boring ward council meeting might cause the people there to skim who had ever had a period where they hadn’t gone to church – and try to ‘help’ them. Or any of the other stuff. But I guess the answer is no. Again, thank-you.
