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I think we can say whatever we all want – and after those words get thought on for a while – it’s often times good we say what is on our minds. Unfortunately, I don’t think anyone can have an expectation to be able to publicly say whatever you want and then expect the church to allow you to continue claiming you are a member in good standing. They are entitled to free agency as much as we are. You can be a “coward”
Such a great post. Reminds me of one video by Holland where he said, “Assume the good, and doubt the bad.” How Do I Love Thee I think it was called. Or perhaps in this case as Ray has already said, “Focus on the bricks, ignore the sand”. I’m not especially active in the church right now – but that being said, I should follow Ray’s advice more and treat the church as I would treat another person – forgiving it’s faults and praising it’s virtues. For me though, that idea has to exist within the goal of life – which is to draw you to Christ and help you be more like Him. I honestly don’t believe the mormon church is the best method for everyone. For me, it probably is – as much as it hurts sometimes. And maybe one day I’ll be more active again. Good thing we’ve got a few hundred billion years in the afterlife to figure it all out. Yes, I agree. They were scared. And they acted in accordance with being scared. And perhaps even more true is the fact that they viewed me as being the corrupting factor for other members of the family. Just like one of us might rationalize saying or doing harsh things to protect someone else. As far as how successful they’ll be on their mission. Well, they are very kind. And the world needs more of that than they need anything else. As Ray said, they’re not so vested in “random” people – so I expect their reaction will be far less harsh – should they encounter any other deadly spreading colonies of Korihor-like flesh-eating bacteria such as myself
They are in a hard spot. The church doesn’t exactly allow them to have an open mind. It took me years to separate God and the church – with lots of pain involved. I can’t expect them to change overnight – even if maybe in an ideal world they should. People need time to change. The trick isn’t to change a person, but to feed their desire to change (aka the light of Christ) – with the love and acceptance it needs. After I cut myself, I don’t try to glue the skin back together – I treat it gently and it heals itself.
I really appreciate everyone’s thoughts. I guess my initial feeling is to refuse any interaction with them based on the church. Perhaps I need to meet them a bit on their own ground – as much as I hate doing that. The things that hurt like hell I guess are usually the ones you need to do anyways. They’ve already left the MTC and are on their way. To be honest, I think they are a bit ashamed of how they lost their composure. But I guess they feel about me about the same way I might feel towards a child who told me tarot card readings and witchcraft were helping them draw close to God. At the end of the day, nothing I can say will ever convince them. But if I can show them you can still be good and well adjusted in ways they also accept as being good without being totally active in the church, then at least I can alleviate some of the torture their minds are feeling right now.
Being kind and respectful of the beliefs of others (ie not trying to change them) and accepting them as they are/as they think seems to open up minds to alternate points of view quicker than anything else I’ve ever seen. I guess as soon as a person feels like we don’t approve of or accept them, they immediately do the same to you. The other thing is that actions are louder than words. If you can find an action that demonstrates the value of what you’re trying to get them to accept, that is what people react to.
And most importantly, it shouldn’t matter to us how a person does choose accept what we are trying to get them to see. We should treat them with kindness irrespective of their actions. I need to make another note to myself to actually begin living up to some of my own advice. I guess I’m still big-time working on making my actions louder than my words.
I am not sure my answer is right. But I’ll throw my sail up into the wind, and hope you can use it to steer the boat in the right direction for you. As much as I’d like to think otherwise, my advice should only be input into your mind to help you make the best decision for you. I wouldn’t be afraid to leave the church for a while. I think fear of allowing yourself to doubt is pointless. You can throw dirt of a rock to hide it, but the rock is still there. Buried doubts don’t go away. At some point – you will have to face it. I could for example quit going to see things where I live because I might get lost as I try to find them, but that would be a terrible waste. I’m not saying you should leave the church. But, don’t you think God would rather have his children resolve their doubts and realy believe in what they believe? For me at least, I think the Atonement bought us all the time we’ll need to figure out the truth. As long as your heart is in the right place, you are going to figure out the real truth eventually – absolutely you will, without a doubt. I believe that God thinks we are worth the extra time it might take.
As others have said, no doubt you’ll find out who your friends are. The true friends are the ones that love and treat you the same after you quit doing the things you want them to do. The where they love you regardless of what you do.
I appreciate the article. For me, I guess it all depends on what you define as a 2nd chance. If giving the church a 2nd chance means inhaling everything emanates from the church – or anybody with any level of responsibility in it – without filtering it through my critical mind, then I guess my answer would be no. However, if a 2nd chance means taking what makes sense and rejecting the rest, then yes. I’ll admit, I probably reject MORE than I should – but that is because of my problems letting go, and not inherently the church. I guess I’ve realized that well meaning entities or people – myself included – can never be worthy of 100% trust. Only perfect entities and people can claim that. And like Maxwell said, the church wasn’t made for perfect people. It was made for imperfect people – and I do believe that the ability to be wrong touches parts of the church the diehard member would perhaps never like to admit. Again, it’s not like I’m condemning the church from my position of perfection. I am wrong and not good much of the time despite trying, and so is the church.
I’d actually really recommend you go to other churches. Not in a “up yours” kind of feeling in regards to the church, but because at least for me, it really helped me decide if the church was right for me. After attending several other services, I found I feel most at home in the mormon church. It also helped me gain a bit more balance. In saying this, I completely respect that for other people, the answer isn’t always the mormon church. I don’t feel a person can’t be happy, good, or a perfectly acceptable person without being an active member of the church. On the dating scene, I would only say that severing a bad relationship early is far better than having to sever a bad marriage later. Certainly not being the Justin Beiber of the ward provides one level of protection against problems later on, so it may be a blessing in disguise. To not really believe in God would be the hardest. I can only say that God doesn’t stop involving Himself in the lives of those who don’t believe in Him. If you keep your eyes peeled, you can bet you’ll see Him clear as day pretty soon.
Hopefully things improve for you.
I am sorry you are in pain. You’ve had a rough go of things, no doubt. Don’t be too hard on yourself. I don’t think God wants us to suppress our doubts all our lives because we were too afraid of what we might find. I’ll be honest, I don’t completely understand how this correlates with faith. But regardless, I feel sure He wants us to go out and find out the truth – and I think He’s OK if we have to wander a bit to do that. I think that’s one of the things the Atonement really did – it buys us all the time we need to figure things out. It’s not like God made the rules – we’ll eventually come to the same conclusion as He has. I am sorry I didn’t respond sooner. I’d love to get a PM and assist however I can. Who knows why some people struggle with self-esteem. Maybe it’s a characteristic of our spirits we bring into this life, or maybe things happen here on earth that plant the seeds of self-hatred and a sense of unworthiness. For me, I think it was a combination of both. For sure, people who’ve been abused or traumatized seem to carry the scars all their life. I guess everyone has their way to try to deal with pain. Some people reflect it back at others, or will do whatever is required to make sure it can’t penetrate their shell – the angry and mean – and then others hold it inside and let it bounce around and destroy them, thinking somehow that the pain must have been caused by something they did or didn’t do, or who they are or who they are not. I’m not convinced either way is much better than the other. The third option of course is to give it to Jesus. He really was like a sponge – He is the only one who can just take it and get rid of it safely. That’s what I try to do that helps. Do I do it successfully? Sometimes yes, most of the time, no, I’m afraid I’m not very good at that. Every person is different, but for me, I find I can let go of hurtful things when I feel safe and loved. I’ve seen other people with behaviors that are extremely damaging let go of them like that as soon as the feeling they’re trying to pull, suck, plead, and cajole out the negative behavior comes from a healthy source. We all seek the same few things, the real variance comes in where we go looking for those things.
As I’ve said in some other posts, I don’t hate the church. If anything, I blame the church more than I should – I’m not perfect, neither are they. But regardless, does the fact that the church may be true prevent my interaction with it from causing emotional damage? Nope occurred just the same. Whether it’s the church that is wrong or my view of the church and of myself that is wrong, the impact is there. I hope you can get your wife out of situations that make her feel like she is worthless and put her in ones where, eventually, however slow, she’ll have a chance to heal inside from whatever is eating her up. For sure, guilt of any kind for your wife is going to be like toxic poison. And unfortunately, whether it should be or not, the church – and most organizations for that matter – use guilt as a manipulator to get the subject to do whatever they want.
One thing that really helped me you might also try is having her read some near death experiences. Many of these are garbage, but there are good ones that ring true to me as well. The ones where the people talk with Jesus. A couple I’ve thought were pretty good. It really changed my thinking about what Jesus is really like. Not the harsh, stern, judging person He’s often made out to be. I don’t believe any more that the church speaks for Jesus 100%.
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Experiences/cynthia_h_nde_5071.htm I think all you really have to do is to want God. You’ll then start looking for Him. And He’s there – always – for everyone. God doesn’t show up just because we start to think about Him or want Him. He’s always been there for each of us. But we certainly start to see Him more. I’m coming to realize that this is why God wants us to be grateful. Not because God needs a “thank-you” from us, but because we need to see how much He helps us. I have a very hard time accepting that God loves me – and I guess most of us do. In the cases where you have trouble loving yourself, it helps to feel God’s love by loving others. It is God that gives us his love when we have trouble loving other people. And even just passing God’s love on to another person, some of it rubs off on us.
The title of your post sort of infers that God is a good distance from you. He isn’t – never was, never will be. I think it would help to instead think of ways to try and see God.
Not that my situation is particularly important in the context of this thread, but I share many of the same experiences as your wife. This is just my $0.02, but I really do believe the root issue may have nothing to do with illness or anxiety, though no doubt it can cause that. You mention Hashimotos disease. That is an autoimmune disease, which is also what caused my problems. I seriously don’t think the relation to self-hate/unworthiness and autoimmune diseases often go together. But to be diagnosed with a disease gives a person who is crushed with guilt something they can offload some of the guilt on – which is VERY good. Now all their problems aren’t their fault. I know that helped me. I think most negative behaviors are our maladapted ways to try to get the basics that we lack. And I guess the basic lack is one of love. I am most assuredly not saying that you don’t love your wife or don’t do everything to help her – you obviously do – but perhaps it’s that she just won’t accept that love due to her feeling unworthy. Either way, the end cause is that she’s not getting enough of it inside of her.
Rather than treating the symptoms, it may be good to try to focus on the cause. Put her in situations where she feels safe and loved as much as you can. Only you can know what those would be for her I guess. And definitely take her OUT of situations where she is traumatized and retreats further back into the other behaviors. If this means moving away from the church until she can get a healthier view of it – I would do it. God I feel certain would much rather have a happy child than he would have one who keeps doing what the church says (right or wrong) just because they’re afraid to quit doing it.
People heal the same as cuts do. You put them in a good environment and they heal themselves. People really WANT to be good. As soon as the need the person is trying meet with the negative behavior is filled in some better way, they tend to automatically move back towards the better behavior. Trying to push the skin of a cut back together so it quits bleeding will never work.
Every situation is different for sure, and I am not aware of all the complications as you are, but hopefully this is one perspective that you in your wisdom can apply for some good.
wornoutsneakers wrote:I know this is short notice, but i’m looking for ideas on how to approach someone.
A sister at church that i have befriended has drastically changed in the past few months. She joined the church last year but do to her work schedule could hardly come to church with her child. In the meantime some well meaning parents and friends at church provided rides for her child to sacrament meetings and weekday meetings. I had befriended her before she joined the church and because of that I was assigned to be her visiting teacher. Everything seemed fine until a few months ago. Then she changed her number and didnt tell anyone. A month later she changed it again. Then one day she was home when someone came to pick up her child for a meeting and she ran out and told them that she wouldnt let him/her go anymore. After repeatedly stopping by her house, texting, and calling her, i finally got her to respond. She told me she would only let me talk to her…no one else from the church. I’m seeing her tomorrow. When i relayed this to some TBM friends they encouraged me to firmly testify of my beliefs and what i know to be true, so on and so forth. They also want me to remind her of the covenants her and her child took. I dont believe i should go that route. Obviously she has changed her mind about the church. If she doesnt want to come to church anymore, or have anything to do with anyone else at church period, how should i respond to that? Should i not talk at all about church with her? Should i share with her the struggles i have had? If i do that do you think that would reinforce any negative opinions she has?
I have shared in some past posts some of the struggles i have with our church. One being that i dont believe that everyone should be required to pay tithing. I havent paid tithing since last year. I realize this may prevent me from attending the Temple. I have a Temple Recommend but havent went since i was last paying tithing. It has become really awkward because friends know that i dont have reliable transportation to go to the temple (its quite a drive for us). So they have been trying for the past month and a half to take me there. But luckily either work or dr appointments have been in the way. I make like .50 more than the mininum wage so its really hard for me to pay too….no one here supports me but me. My opinion on tithing has drastically changed in the past 6 mths or so. It may also be due to the fact that the Bishop has really been emphasizing that people need to be more “self reliant” and “sufficient”. How can you complain people are not temporally self reliant enough when they are giving you 10% of their earnings? If i were to do that i would need the church to pay my electric bill every month or my water bill.
I have also struggled due to being one of the very few single adults in my ward…she is single too. I have often been tempted to go to another church just to see if there is a way to meet more single adults my age. Most of the singles in my ward are widows. I bring this up because i think she is hinting to me that she wants to start doing some activities that many other members in our church wouldnt do because alcohol is involved. I havent drank alcohol in almost 7 years now…and if im put in an environment where there is alcohol i might be tempted to drink again (it was never a problem for me i just know the WOW says we shouldnt). If i complain about some of these things with her im afraid i will be seen as encouraging her to leave the church.
Any thoughts?
Too little too late I suppose, but I think the best way to deal with a person that has left the church is to leave the church out of it! They left for reason, don’t mention it treat them normally – like the same we a stalwart member would treat someone in the church they really respect. I guess the church to a past member is like the 500lb gorilla in the room – you don’t need to point it out – everyone already knows it’s there. Trying to change someone back to an ideal is fine, to a point, but I think we are encouraged to do too much of that in the church. More often than not, a person’s spirit needs to feel like they are accepted, loved, and good enough more than they need to be coerced, pleaded with, and guilt-tripped back into performing a series of actions they don’t really believe anyways.
On Own Now wrote:I haven’t been in a ward that did it for a long, long time, so my comments are hypothetical, but I would welcome it. I only go to SM currently, but I would likely (sometimes) stay for the whole block in order to have some social time. I find the social interaction to be a major factor in going to Church as it is, but as such, I only get a few minutes before/after SM, and in that’s it.
I enjoy going to ward parties, but one problem that these can have is scripting. “OK, everyone, stop talking to each other while we now play an ice-breaker game.” Linger Longer would be all the good and none of the bad of a ward party.
I agree with you 100% that we have too many meetings. Viewing a party (or a common meal together) as a meeting would make it seem burdensome, so, from that standpoint, I see what you are saying. But for me, if the only “meetings” in the Church were a 1-hr Sacrament Meeting every week and an occasional party or common meal together, I’d be in Heaven. I think it would be awesome if the Bishop would do the LL in LIEU of the other non-3-hr-block meetings, one Sunday a month.
I find this interesting. I also only attend SM currently. I feel that if I attend more than that, the leadership of a ward starts to get their “hooks” into me. They notice me, and begin to try and convert me. If I only go for SM, I just sort of slip in and slip out. The things I hear in SM really help me – I want to be a better person after I leave, which surely is a good thing. After priesthood, I usually feel like an unworthy piece of garbage again.
Unfortunately, for me at least – and maybe others as well – I view anything with the ward as another possibility where they can attempt to do something to manipulate me to getting to do exactly what they like. That’s a huge issue that I have. The church doesn’t let you go up to your knees. Once you dip a toe in the water, they attempt every means possible (albeit with good intentions) to get you to conform. Nothing else is accepted. You’ll never hear, “it’s OK that you don’t …. we accept you as you are”. OK, maybe they SAY we accept you, all I hear is words. You’ll never be good enough as is until you are what they want you to be.
Could very well just be my own issues with trusting others that are causing this interpretation, but it’s definitely how I feel sometimes. So I guess my answer to linger longer is I don’t really like it. But I can see how others would like it.
I am a lifetime member – though not necessarily by choice – strange as that sounds. Would I stay with the church knowing what I know now? I guess I feel about that like Maxwell said about the furnace of affliction. I certainly wouldn’t feel inclined to jump back in line for a second pass. But, I feel that because of the church, I am closer to God than I would be otherwise. That doesn’t mean I’m as close as I should be – just that I’m closer than I would have been. And for me, that’s the real purpose of ANY church – to bring you closer to God. In the things that really matter, I don’t think your good-hearted mormon is one iota above a good hearted baptism, catholic, or muslim. If I could go back before the pain of the last 10 years, my inclination would be to search for something that would accomplish that without the pain. But, perhaps God knew what He was doing when He put me in the church – knowing that there were things I’d learn in no other way.
