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Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. There church has a LOT of flaws. Or, perhaps it’s the people within the church. But I guess a knife cuts you the same way whether it’s a teenager or adult who holds onto it. My issue is that a imperfect church (or at least a church run by imperfect people) – demands perfect obedience. I was fine with this, until all of a sudden I was slammed in the face with reality as a boy sick and unable to serve a mission.
However, when I read the New Testament Gospels – about the only thing I read any more – I do see that Christ DID have a church. He did talk about baptism. He did have apostles. He did institute the sacrament and have a temple. I realize that trying to balance holding onto your standards while accepting people as they are must be tremendously difficult to do for the church. I have actually recently tried attending service for several other religions – catholic, baptist, etc., – and it really gave me a good feeling about the mormon church.
For me, at least, the biggest problem with the church is how much the importance of obeying the rules is pounded into members. From the day you are born until the day you die, the church is number 1. There is no other way to God than the church. They place themselves squarely between a person and God, blocking the path. They might allow you to shout to talk to Him, but if you really want to get to God, the church has to be the one that holds your hand to get to them. There is a feeling that you can’t be really good unless you are in accordance with what the church tells you to do. I don’t know that the church means to be that way, but that’s the way it is.
Like Ray said, this is true with any organization. You’ll be ostracized on a soccer team if you never attend practice, or feel out of place on the PTA board if you only attend a meeting once every 6 months or whatever. But at least you’re not told you’ll be damned in your progression throughout all eternity if you disobey the church. I mean, those are some pretty toxic words.
I just wish that we would all accept others as they are – instead of trying to change them into molly mormon/peter priesthood ideal. I wish that all the people who suffer from the constant feeling of not being good enough in the church could come to a point where their self-worth isn’t entirely dictated on their status in the ward or strict obedience to the church. I don’t think it’s an error on God’s part that everyone isn’t a member of the church. I think God put me in the church for a reason – because it taught me things I wouldn’t learn anywhere else. Those things hurt like hell, but that’s life I suppose.
I guess I need to look on the church as I would try to look on a person – to take the good and leave the bad. As I’ve distanced myself from it, I’m finding it easier to let go of all the hurt and anger I had surrounding it. At least some of the hurt and anger now isn’t being directed back towards myself. It’s when that happens that I think depression and suicide results.
DarkJedi wrote:I agree with you for the most part Intothelight, and I don’t want you to feel like I’m nitpicking. The guilt and pressure associated with not going on a mission is not the only problem – there is a great deal of stress on the missionaries themselves. This stress is overwhelming for some and truly messes them up their whole lives, and I think it’s even worse for those that have to return early because they can’t deal with mission life.
That is very kind of you. And no issue on the nitpicking. As much as there is something inside of me that would like to believe I am always right, it simply isn’t true – so my responses NEED to be corrected by other’s opinions. I agree with you completely – my brother served a mission, and completed it, but hated every moment. He still hates the church for it to this day. To be surrounded with constant feelings that you are insufficient or not good enough is like poison to the soul. And for good or ill, the church emphasizes certain ways of doing things so strongly that I guess it creates those feelings in a lot of people. It’s a good thing we have eternity to work through this stuff
I really appreciate everybody’s thoughts. It helps a lot. I guess I feel like God put me in the church for a reason. Because perhaps He knew it would hurt like hell, and as much as I hate to say it, the things that hurt like that are usually really good for you. Not even Christ was able to learn without feeling pain, so we’re in good company. I am working on letting go of the pain and guilt I have associated with the church for so long, but it will take time. When I say that, I don’t hate the church. OK – to be more honest, the bitterness still surfaces on occasion, but I am trying to get over that. I agree with what others have said about the negatives of the church not be intentional. As much as I criticize the church, I am quite certain I couldn’t create anything so good were I to try. My biggest problem is that an imperfect church demands unconditional and perfect obedience. That was fine until a bishop a while back smashed that perception of perfection. Not his fault – like me, he was imperfect.
So I guess for now, I’ll fly in the face of general conference recommendations and be a “buffet eater” at the table of the gospel. I simply cannot risk more damage to myself by letting them dictate my self-worth based on my willingness to do whatever they tell me to. But I pray for the many many members of the church whose self worth is destroyed by their inability to meet the eagle scout, returned missionary, temple marriage, lots of kids, bishop, stake president, missionary couple ideal that is out there.
I think the only real problem with a mission is the tremendous pressure we place on children to go. A male child spends the first 18 or 19 years of their life being told that their level of goodness and being right with God is dependent on whether or not they serve a mission. I know, those aren’t the words we say, but we attach such a incredible importance to it, that’s what the child hears. And how difficult is it to stay in the church if you don’t go on a mission? Well, I think it’s very difficult. I guess it’s a fork in the road. Either you attach utmost importance on the church or you don’t. I came home after a few days on my mission due to what people perceived as just quitting on my part, and didn’t find out until years later that I had a disease which has since destroyed my liver and will most likely take my life in a few years. I take ownership of my own life – but the impact not serving a mission had on me is almost impossible to express. I don’t know that I’ll ever quite get over it in this life. Again, not necessarily the church’s problem, but I need to at least say it. I am grateful that a mission works for many people, but I think we should be OK with people don’t serve, and not view them as having done anything wrong. I guess the only way to do that is to place less importance on a mission than we do. I guess in saying that I am flying in the face of the authority of the prophet, and maybe I am. God knows it’s not meanness in me that is saying that. If I am wrong and the church is right, I think one day I will come to know it – and I can’t help but to think that God will give me all the time I need to get my thoughts sorted out and come to the right conclusion. I can only speak to what happened to me – one trumpet’s sound in the band you might say.
I don’t think there is any person alive on earth that can say they never struggle with anxiety or depression. We all do – some more than others. Probably is more correct to say that some days are worse than others. I used to think that the church was the cause for a lot of my “problems”. In reality, I think the church was just slightly more adept at uncovering them. And I’m coming to realize that being exposed isn’t entirely bad. People who never are exposed and/or have to hurt very rarely change. As much as I claim at times to hate the bad parts of the church, it’s definitely been the thing that’s put a gun to my head and is beginning to force me to realize that my identity is beyond a member of the church. There are lots of good members of the church who don’t know the church is true any more than I do. They just haven’t happened to have something come along yet that’s forced them to realize that they’re not quite as sure of it as they think they are. Or, for the purposes of this thread, some people just aren’t going through something right now that’s hard enough drag them into severe anxiety/depression. I think I need to treat the church like I should treat a person. To think of them as a imperfect person who occasionally manipulates, is sometimes good, and other times not so good. Like me, they are not perfect. I tend to be harder on them, because I don’t view them as a person. Certain, it’s a bit different – because I can normally leave a relationship that has become damaging – and still feel good about myself. But in the church, that’s harder to do. The church stands pretty firmly on the point that everyone will be happier and a better person when they’re in the church. And they cram that idea into children from the day you are born until they day you die. The idea of all being happier in the church I’m not convinced is totally true. If the church is true in the way the church defines being true, I guess everyone will be happier in it – eventually. But I know lots of people I’d never share the church with – just because I know they’d go from thinking they were a good coffee drinker living with their boy/girlfriend, who shops and fishes on Sunday to thinking they were a terrible person. OK – so to be honest, I don’t share the church with anyone – I only try to tell them about how kind and gentle and loving God is – or try to – but again I’m not a good example of what I am saying. I guess it takes a pretty incredibly stable level of confidence in your decisions in order to consistently exist around a influence that hurts you without hating. That said, most things that hurt like heck are good for you
I figure that’s why God put me in the church. I’ve probably learned lessons from my pain in the church I wouldn’t have learned any other way.
I suppose there really is no answer to this question – at least if by answer we mean a black and white solution. I guess I knew this even when I posed the question. Perhaps introduced the discussion would be more accurate. But I do like to get the perspective of other people, so all your answers are much appreciated. I’d never say any of this to a bishop either. Or to pretty much anyone in my family. Thankfully, I have a brother who will think objectively about the church and struggles much as I do, so I can talk to somebody. If I were to venture a guess, I’d say our condition in the next life will be based on our hearts, and not our actions. The Atonement took care of the consequences of our actions. I’m not saying actions don’t matter – but I think that a person with a pure heart will eventually overcome negative actions if given enough time – another thing provided to us in spades by the Atonement. For things that really matter, I feel quite certain that the legitimately well-meaning soul will not be subject to the consequences of an honest mistake. Not saying that a well-meaning person won’t have consequences in life, but for things of truly eternal significance, I think they are covered. Now, am I REALLY well-meaning? The honest answer is sometimes yes I am, and sometimes no I’m not. I think Faust said once that we are often not as guiltless as we think we are when trials come up.
When questions similar to this are posed, I think they are really just asking – even pleading – for acceptance. And I believe it’s that unwillingness to accept any straying from the established doctrine that makes the haters of the church hate it so vehemently. You either come to church and pretty quickly adhere to the rules, or you leave.
So what is more important? The rules, or the people? Like everything, it’s a balancing act. You can’t completely dismiss the rules, but they can’t trump everything else. I’m glad we have someone perfect who will work it all out.
I have struggled with a very similar situation as well. It’s amazing how many of us there are. Here is the conclusion I’ve come to. Might not be right for everyone, but it is right for me I think. I look at whether or not the church is the one true church as a “who cares” kind of issue. Sort of sounds flippant but I don’t mean it to be. I mean, a mathematician might come up to me and start quoting formulas, etc., – and he is probably right – but I’m probably not going to pay attention as there are other things I feel to be more important. For me, whether a person is kind and gentle towards other people matters more than whether they have a temple recommend, drink coffee, report 100% on your home teaching, and so on. Any religion – even ours – gains power over another person by placing themselves between you and God and saying that you can’t fully come to Christ unless you go through them. And that I believe to be patently false. I’m not saying that the church is attempting to gain power over people by manipulating on purpose – but that’s sort of what happens, whether it’s intended or not. There have been lots of causes that have used fear to get people to do things, and justify it by believing their “thing” is so important that it justifies it. My recommendation is to not take the church quite so seriously. There are great things about it – and things that aren’t so great. Take what’s good and helps you (make sure you are honest in this), and leave what isn’t So yes, I’m telling you to fly in the face of multiple conference talks and treat the church like a buffet If we are wrong, do you really believe that the most compassionate Being in the universe will punish a person for taking a few more years to figure the truth out? Most people in the church don’t allow themselves to look objectively at issues – and in so doing, they place themselves in a big glass bubble that is eventually shattered by a human bishop having a bad day, or happening to read something about Brigham Young, or a million other things. You never really know if you believe something until you’ve doubted it! To suppress honest things you think out of fear is just living a lie to maintain the status quo.
