[jamison]

Thanks for the posts, I ended up having a better experience at Church today. As for the scouting I will wait for the dust to settle and if it doesn’t appear to have fixed itself within a couple of weeks I will reach out to the community. StayLDS.com is great I always appreciate everyone’s thoughtful comments. I think after I vent here I tend to have better Sundays/Church days that follow. Thanks again to all that have posted.

[jamison]

I remember the talk at the dinner table and family gatherings that were upsetting were the changes in Church Policy involving the money. How missions went to one equal amount of money. (Which was fine for our family since we were poor, but none of us went to expensive missions anyway).

I know that a lot of the fun stuff the Church used to do stopped happening when the Church budget policies changed. I even heard once in my home Stake that a rich member of the Church paid to have the air conditioning overhauled because Salt Lake didn’t want to pay the tab. Talk of money and how it is used is a point of contention in any organization. I’m glad I don’t serve in any capacity of leadership or administration in the Church otherwise, I would probably be ticked-off. Silent Dawning your post just re-awakens reasons why I’m not in leadership, or the Stake for that matter.

[jamison]

Mr. Richard, Welcome to Stay LDS. I am an intellectual that has stayed in the Church and I finally feel happier than I have been in awhile, although I still have my gripes and complaints. I don’t always feel accepted in the Church because I have broadened my horizons as a cultural anthropologist and see things from a different perspective. I also understand that the way the gospel is taught at church is generally taught with the expectation that people are idiots. I will focus on one of your issues only since you have a lot of rants, which is okay since that is the way you get them out. You wrote

Quote:

But I still needed to talk about the church with people who were more liberally minded. I soon looked up the Community of Christ church and decided to pay them a visit. I LOVED my experience there. The adult sunday school class was the drug I longed for. So open and honest. Well taught and scholarly. A bit confusing at times. When I got back, my wife was hurt very badly. I was stupid enough to “change churches” although I had no intention of leaving Mormonism. She called an told my mom, which was the first she had heard of me questioning the church, which began a firestorm of involvement from my family, which I have yet to recover from.

I think it is great that you are learning about the community of Christ. I have learned from Baptists, Buddhists, and Jehovah’s Witnesses, Catholics, the Anglican Church, and the Evangelical Protestants. I think it helps to have an intellectual testimony as well as a spiritual one. We are dualistic beings, and have to fee our intellect as well as our spirits. My best friends outside the church are Agnostic and Buddhist respectively.

One thing that helps is to separate Jesus, the Gospel, and the Church, and then after you have separated the issues to link them together. I will say things to myself like I believe in Jesus just as my Protestant, and Catholic brothers and sisters, but I may interpret his Atonement, Mission, and existence different then them.

I also remind people that the Church does not have a monopoly on truth or the Spirit. The Church is a Service organization that strives to get people to serve each other and their fellow man and to convey the Love of Jesus with others. Service in the Church should not be overwhelming and it should not take priority over our own well-being and our families.

The third thing that Ii compartmentalize is the Gospel. The gospel is taught in the Bible, and the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl ofGreat Price. The first two principles of the gospel are believed by all Christians in-or outside of the LDS Church. Baptism is believed by many but varies. Being a good Christian is taught by all Christians. Believing in Christ as the Savior is taught by all Christians.

Then there are the Mormon issues, which set us apart. These issues and questions are appendages to what JS himself taught as the most important thing that Jesus atoned, died, and rose again the third day and everything else are appendages unto it. I can differ with the Book of Mormon model of where it supposedly took place. I can see how the Godhead can be confusing even in Mormon Scripture. I can see how Exaltation can be hard to swallow for both Mormons and non-Mormons. I can see how there are many issues in the gospel that may not appear as clean cut as they are taught perhaps in Primary or in the Mission field. I also see how Historic Christianity struggled with similar issues and why a “true” Church has to be maintained even if sometimes it appears to be superficially maintained by dumb lambs that don’t appear to question anything, when Joseph Smith questioned What Church to Join. He didn’t worry about what church he attended, he worried about which one to join for his own salvation.

I won’t babble anymore. I just think as an adult we get to the point – to realize what battles we will fight, what things don’t matter, and what matters overall. I hope what I write helps and brings you some type of consolation.

[jamison]

Back even before the restoration of the Priesthood, Joseph had repented of his sins. One example was the first vision. How Could he see God the Father and Jesus Christ without his sins being somehow forgiven? Secondly, when in his room in the Smith Family home in Palmyra, Joseph prayed to know his standing before God and the Angel Maroni appeared unto him to tell him about the Gold Plates, and the mission he would have. I don’t remember it correctly, but perhaps he had his sins forgiven in that moment to.

[jamison]

PiperAlpha wrote

Quote:

As always, some talks are great, others I can do without. Therefore the buffet style works better for me than suggesting (like obedience)

I got in a big fight with my wife during conference because I said that I don’t have to watch every talk, and I have issues with some of the statements and the unclear meanings and ambiguities. I left my home today, very disgusted.

[jamison]

If it wasn’t for President Uctdorf, everything would just be Ho Hum in the Church.

I did not listen to the Sunday Morning session since I don’t see how any of it will change my life for the better.

Perception bunch of rich white dudes telling us to hang on and life will get better, doesn’t suit my needs when I am set back by 10 years of my life.

[jamison]

Old-Timer wrote:

Quote:

Yes, absolutely – but there are different ways to stand up for yourself. You can be assertive without being proud or aggressive – or, in lots of cases, confrontational. In some case, confrontation is necessary – but even that can be done in different ways. Standing up for myself can be the result of pride – but it also can be the result of conviction and love.

I quit my church calling, and as I did so I had the thought that they will get by without me, but they will miss what I brought to the table. I was full of pride, resentment, anger, and hurt because of other’s actions. I don’t necessarily view pride as a bad thing. I think all of us have to have a degree of pride to stay afloat in this world of fierce competition. I know many time if I would have given into my pride it would have actually saved me from some bad situations. Sometimes we are too good for certain employment and certain schools. If that pride surfaces it can save us from a lot of wasted effort and time. Who knows maybe if we wait for that better job (virtue of Patience) we would not settle for the job that we don’t really want. I struggle with pride every time I go to church.

I think the Church helps create pride through missionary farewells, homecomings, Eagle Scout, On My Honor Award. I saw all these things as self-elevating.

[jamison]

Doesn’t encouraging other people of other countries to become US citizens go against the theme of building Zion in their own countries, which developed out of the anti-immigration policies of the US during the 1920s? I’m just wondering. Some people in the church may have issues with this, since it seems like the Church is flip-flopping. I’ve heard other TBMs quote the Article of Faith about Honoring and Sustaining the Law in support of their vow against illegal immigration. I’m neutral and think the Church’s stance is humanitarian in approach and that new immigrants = potential new converts that US culture hasn’t sabotaged yet.

[jamison]

You stated,

Quote:

I’ve had a few, those are the units where actually seem to focus on being more like Jesus and less like corporate drones.

I miss those wards as well. It seems like the Church is trying really hard to get people to be that way, but the church has too many business meetings, and not enough spiritual “Day of Pentecost” type events.

I missed out on the First Vision lesson, but here are some of my experiences and thoughts with it.

Back in the 1990s I was a TBM when it came to the First Vision, but now I see it as the back of the $2 bill.

On the back of the $2 is the founding myth of the United States of America where all the founding fathers got together and signed the Declaration on the first Independence Day. Well, it didn’t really happen like that it is just easier to depict it in such idealic way. It was more of an arduous process to get the certain colonists to sign it and it wasn’t this monumental epoch day on July 4, 1776. It actually happened either the 2, or 3rd and thereafter.

First of all JS didn’t like to tell his First Vision, it was private and very personal thing. Then when he did tell it there are variants depending on the purpose of the telling and who his audience was. In my Institute Class on the D&C I was shocked to discover that the First Vision wasn’t promulgated in the Church until 1880. I guess by then the brethren realized what implications it had in the face of the Christendom that followed the Creeds. The first Vision is the very antithesis of the Nicene Creed. It is used as a missionary tract to take on the creeds and support that Joseph is a prophet even though a reading of the Book of Mormon does it for some. What’s interesting is that when I was a DL in the mission, one of the investigators totally forgot the FV, and when I asked him what were his reasons for believing that JS was a prophet, the investigator remarked, because of that Book the Elders gave me.

What I don’t like is how everyone thinks JS is the only prophet that saw either God or Jesus. The Current Prophets and Apostles won’t mention their visions (if they have some), I would like to believe that they do. But what purpose would they serve?

What’s interesting is if you read the current Lorenzo Snow manual, Lorenzo Snow testified that he “actually saw the Savior . . . in the Temple, and talked with HIm face to face.” The occasion was to reorganize the Priesthood upon the death of Wilford Woodruff in Sept. 1898. What’s interesting is that the Lord at that occasion tells Lorenzo Snow to reorganize the First Presidency quickly and not to wait like other Presidents did. [See Teachings of the Presidents of the Church p. 27] So I wonder: Are Some Prophets more in tune than others? The answer would be yes, otherwise the appearance of the Savior wouldn’t make any sense. I also wonder if the rise of mental health professionals has something to do with not stating that you have seen a vision.

I sometimes felt a bit uncomfortable sharing the First Vision with others because it was something so personal to Joseph. I felt that some people weren’t even prepared for it and felt like I was casting a pearl before swine. I don’t like the fact that we get so casual in the sharing of it, that we overlook the significance of it. I had one convert tell me that he missed believing in God in an abstract way and he thought God as an “ideal” was something more significant to him then as “just another man.” I took this in and thought for a moment, maybe he’s right. Maybe viewing God as “too human,” diminishes who He really is. Then I realized that he didn’t understand the principle of Exaltation. Because without the gospel principle of Exaltation, the First Vision doesn’t really make any sense to those who believe in the Creeds of Christendom. To most Christians God is only a Father figuratively and not spiritually or literally like we believe.

[jamison]

No offense, but will you state something that Joseph Smith was hesitant about drafting and publishing the Articles of Faith since he was against anything that came close to the creeds of Christendom. The Articles of Faith are a brief synopsis of faith, yet have nothing to do with Temple work, or Baptisms for the Dead.

[jamison]

I actually think the Church will change, or it will die. The Church is trying to conform to the world, yet trying not to.

Actually the Church gets along because of the women, not the men. The men have to preside to feel important.

1. The RS is probably more organized and stronger than the priesthood.

-The High Priests and Elders are mostly divided, and they just handle Presidency Meetings

-You cannot have men serve in primary w/out another man or woman. Women rule the Primary.

-The hardest calling in the Church is nursery and you have women in charge of it.

-In my ward women handle all of the cub scouts. In my ward only women teach gospel doctrine.

2. you probably have more visiting teaching getting done than home teaching.

3. The new age for missionaries is an indication that things are changing.

4. The world is not as male centric as it used to be. Sherry Dew is the head of Deseret Book.

5. Women generally get information more quickly than men do. My wife get’s revelation before I get it, b/c I wasn’t asking.

In my ward the RS President got news of my son’s illness before the Bishop did.

Changes I’ve had to make socially:

From havinga a totaly mysoginistic father growing up, I have envied my Dad’s position of working full-time, but now I think I am grateful for being a stay-at-home father since I have more time to influence my kids.

I read one of my ancestors (she’s female) patriarchal blessing, and it talked about how she could give blessings of comfort. I was taken aback by this and wondered why the church changed.

Over all we will see more changes to accomodate women it just wont be drastic, it will be little by little.

[jamison]

Additionally,

The LDS Bible Dictionary lists many Greek anglicized words that were used in the New Testament. Here is just a few, and some others that I have learned along my scholastic journey.

Alpha and Omega – Beginning and End

Paraclete – for the Holy Spirit, which actually means “Advocate”

Parousia – Second Coming

Ecclesia – Church (iglesia in Spanish) Literally means “Assembly”

Hypocrite – Pretender (one who is a play actor)

Presbytr – Elder

Episkopos – Bishop

Hades – Obviously means Hell.

Christos – Anointed one, Messiah in Hebrew

Apocalypse – that which is hidden.

Apostasy – falling away.

Apostolos – One who is sent.

I’m not an expert in Greek, but these are the ones’ that I have learned. So, certainly Greek language and Culture influenced the Bible, but I don’t think it is based upon Greek Gods.

[jamison]

I disagree with the postulation that the Bible is based upon Greek gods. The Bible people’s cultural backdrop was Greek Hellenism, Greek language, and greek culture. For example the word hypocrite Jesus may have picked up from the Greek Theatre close to his Nazareth home. The Romans spoke Greek, and many of the Hellenistic Jews throughout the Roman Empire spoke Greek as well. The word “Hades” meaning the underworld was used analogous to outer darkness by Jesus. Many concepts of Greek cosmology were used by John to convey that Jesus was the reason or rationale for existence. (See St. John Ch. 1) The word for this was the Greek word “Logos”. You have to look at the Bible as written for a Greek speaking world throughout Annatolia (Asia Minor). The Romans in John, the Beloved, aka John the Revelator’s day eventually will have a Caesar that claims to be divine. Since the Christians worship Christ instead of the state ruler (Caesar), they soon find themselves in a difficult spot. John uses Christ walking on the Water to symbolize that Jesus is Greater than the Roman/Greek God Neptune.

There is a great article on this issue of attempting to syncretize/blend some Christian ideas to Greek theology in Studia Antiqua a scholarly journal that deals with issues of the ancient world. I have read enough Bible translation books that discuss the Greek words of Scripture, and Biblical Archaeology Review (BAR) to realize that there is a lot to support the ideas that I have just presented. Much of the Scholarly community (non-LDS and LDS would tend to agree with these ideas).

It is interesting to note that if the Jews would have succeed in preventing the Romans plundering of Jerusalem in 70 AD, then Jesus’ name would have been Yshua Messiah the Hebrew equivalent to JC. However, because the Greek-speaking Romans later in 326 AD made Christianity the Standard Religion of the Empire, you have the more Greek sounding name: Jesus Christ.

[jamison]

Old-Timer wrote:

Quote:

a congratulations is nothing close to an endorsement. I am really glad they issued the congratulations, since it sent a clear message, imo, that members shouldn’t be out there predicting the apocalypse as a result of the election.

I pondered this and thanks to my awesome institute class, I have resolved that the First Presidency congratulated Obama like you congratulate a young person who graduated high school. To the First Presidency, the President has very little power compared to them. It is like congratulating your kid who can finally ride a bike without training wheels. Orson Pratt wrote against the President of the US at the time (I cannot remember who it was) and said that a 12 year-old Deacon had more power in his little finger than the President. The Priesthood teaches that when men gain a little power as they suppose they already begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. So certainly any MAN on this earth that gets power will rule not according to God’s will. I have a hard time ruling my family without unrighteous dominion. Perhaps even Romney may have lost his soul because absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I’m grateful for the separation of Church and State, because it helps me realize that I don’t have to worry about how corrupt, or how far off a government goes. I remember that the Saints in East Germany had the Frieberg Temple and were able to worship there without incident. So, if the nation goes the way of the former Warsaw nations, we would still have the freedom of worshiping in our temples where the peace of God can be found.

I’m sorry if I rustled any feathers. Wow, I even got threatened to be blocked–that is a first. I guess I am making progress. I am through my faith crisis. It is just that you grow up in the world seeing everything black and white, and the church does a great job creating that aura for you. I served a mission in the Southern States and realized I personally wasn’t that different than a lot of evangelicals in my belief in the Bible and Jesus Christ. I envied some of the ministers who could be more charismatic and cavalier in their preaching style compared to the boring LDS talks that do little to motivate at times. I also envied my JW friends who didn’t salute the flag because they saw it as idolatry, and I realized that God is supreme. So I guess they even have a point. I respect my Buddhist friend that joined the Army as a cook, because he is against war. Jesus isn’t really clear about what you give to government more than the render to Caesar that which is Caesar’s and that to God which is God’s. So, I’m sure that is why the Church takes political neutrality unless it is what the 15 apostles consider a moral issue.

[jamison]

Wayfarer wrote:

Quote:

Alas, the “mormon moment” is indeed over. Thank heavens!

I don’t believe this is the case. With the wake of the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy much humanitarian aid is needed. Won’t the Church with Mormon Helping Hands help out with that.

The missionaries are going to double with the new change in policy. I heard the applications to become missionaries have tripled or quadrupled. I know 18 and a half years-old young men that only did a semester of college and they have received their mission calls. I think Romney opened the door to a lot of “future” missionary work. The Mormon moment has essentially just begun. A lot of missionary work is imminent. I’m sure this election caused many to be curious about Mormons, and perhaps that curiosity will turn to interest.

[Author]

Posts