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I’m confused, Ezra Taft Benson spoke out against communism and socialism, yet if America goes down that rode, President Monson would allow us to embrace what we disdained during the cold war. The Church wants Fathers to be unemployed? I’m having a faith crisis. I hear many people claim that Obama is the Anti-Christ. I believe that as well when he was elected in 2008. I don’t know why the First Presidency congratulated him on his victory, when they have to be politically neutral. It is like they are endorsing Obama. I read the Book of Mormon and it speaks very blatantly about despots and those that want to take freedom away from people. Obama sees the Constitution as a road block and a negative and our Doctrine & Covenants talks about how the Constitution is inspired and ordained of God.
It seems like it is going against the gospel beliefs.
I just don’t think Zion will survive in an environment that may turn antagonistic against the freedom or religion. Why are we told not to fight, but just to cower in fear.
Why not just become evangelical and believe that Jesus is the only person that can save us? Why not be as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and call all earthly Kingdoms an evil abomination? I just don’t think politics and the church gel well. We are encouraged to vote and participate in the political process, yet the whole process seems anti-Christ to begin with. I think I’m gonna err on the side of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I’m very close to denouncing my faith as I had it conceptualized. Are we just supposed to give up and wait for Jesus? What I have been taught my whole life does not fit into the present paradigm. The Church is like the 1960s hippies just singing Kumbaya, and holding hands and telling everyone that love is all you need, and I am full of hate for my fellow men. I think I may become an evangelical Christian since Jesus is the only person that can save us from evil. I can still believ in the CK. I can still be an inside the closet Mormon. I just think it’s ridiculous going to church and people just stick their noses in their curriculum books and don’t have discussions out of the box. It is almost like we want to be sitting ducks placed in concentration camps.
@momto11- You are my hero, I have to say you put people straight when they are feeding falsehoods or their own opinion. I do this myself sometimes, and people get taken aback, but we were told by Pres. Hinckley to Stand for Something. If we don’t stand up for the truth or our own genuine experience of things, then what is the point? I don’t like it when people use the Church lessons and their callings as teachers in the church as a bully pulpit or soap box. I respect those who do take a side note of IMO, or I had an experience with such and such. These things don’t bother me, it is just those that think they are holier than thou and think they Know it all, really bug me. Such people as these deserve to be put in their place when they over step their bounds, or they don’t have authority to speak on something they have no clue about.
@ wayferer, What I’m trying to say is that at church it seems that the TBMs are just going along with everything like Sheep. I’m the type of person that questions things, and rocks the boat. Jesus rocked the boat a lot For example Jesus rocked Judaism of the first century, the established religion of the Pharisees and Saducees at the time. Sometimes I feel that the Church becomes the Church of the Pharisees from outward expressions of members and false piety. Such things disgust me. When people are down to Earth and genuine, then I appreciate it more.
I had examples in my life that resembled how Jesus really acted. Yes Jesus was compassionate to many poor, and sick people, and the marginalized. Nevertheless, Jesus trashed the Pharisees, and turned their religion on its head.
What I’m getting at is many people in the Church are taught to smile and grin and bear oppression, and hatred, when there are times not to turn the other cheek, but to stand up for others that need advocates, and to fight evil in a battle royal.
I see too many passive TBMs, or aggressive ones for the wrong reasons. One such reason could be the numbers game. I got all my HTing done for the month and I got to the temple this month, and worked in the cannery. Now, I’m good until next month. Yet, did you really help the guy that was hurt, or the person that doesn’t have food to feed his family. Real Christian living means: Compassion, Sacrifice, and standing in the face of injustice. Jesus always had compassion for the sick, afflicted, and the poor in spirit and temporally. Jesus stood up to Pharisees, was brought before Caiphas, and Pilate to be condemned to die. We don’t necessarily need to be condemned to die, but how many people condemn the poor and the needy. How about the children and women who don’t have advocates. How about the kids with special needs that get made fun of because they are different. What about the kids from different racial backgrounds that get picked on because of the color of their skin, or the shape of their eyes. What about social injustice by an overreaching corporation, or an oppressive government that does not care for its people, and goes against their wills for its own ends. ETC. ETC. ETC.
@ Heber 13 – Thanks for posting excerpts from the David B. Haight talk. That talk is a better substitute than the Cook talk. I think that talk is more effective. When an Elder that is high up in the Church can see the problems with the Church, then I start to feel more comfortable. I’m glad that some GAs will acknowledge the shortcomings of the Church as an institution, and not just sugar coat everything. Thanks again for the posts. Cadence wrote: Quote:We glorify spending untold millions on fretting over dead people and watch our neighbor go unemployed for months. I could give crap about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or any other lame doctrine that has no real substance. It is all just speculation anyway. My church would use all that business prowess to uplift and edify the members temporally above all else and I am convinced the spiritual part would automatically follow. It is hard for a man or woman to be spiritually edified when they are living under the stress of financial instability always.
I say if you are the one true church prove it and alter the lives of your members with more than just talk and speculation about how wonderful everything is going to be if you just believe. Uplift your members and make their lives more than all other churches combined have ever done. Call on God to end the suffering and anxiety. Ask him for real direction on how to get us moving towards a real self sufficient society of equals.
Thanks with the quote, I totally needed this. I like the speculation part. I use a similar line when people get off topic about stuff that doesn’t matter. I sometimes wonder how Zion will be “with no poor among them.” Will the poor somehow become rich because of the law of consecration, or will the poor be exiled and cast out as sinners. We never get the message on how Zion is to be accomplished. Whenever the law of consecration, or the United Order is mentioned, you always have the line that we are living it partially by 10% of tithing, and fast offerings that people pay. Yet, how many people that truly are suffering are helped. Working at DI or welfare square may help alleviate some need, but it still doesn’t get me to the place of self-sufficiency. One prophet even speaks out against self-sufficiency, but then we are told to be self-sufficient. Go figure.
I actually had an okay day today at church. It’s probably because I didn’t stay in charge beyond two hours, and I avoided all speculation and called an old friend on the phone that I haven’t spoken to for months. Oh well, I guess carpe diem, when it comes to my life. Something will happen, it always does. Sorry for my rants, but it helped me to blow off some steam.
Thanks for the support. It’s good to hear it from others. Sunday – I got the perfection and strive to be perfect talk. I hate these talks to. I remember my institute teacher said – we are all imperfect, we all sin and have weak moments. Additionally, he stated: It will take Eons of time in the hereafter to reach perfection. When I think about that, I pause and think. I don’t have to be so hard on my self. I will try to do my best, but I will enjoy my mortal experience to the best of my ability, but I won’t beat myself up about being perfect. I am far from it, and that is why Jesus died for me and gives me GRACE.
Sam wrote, Quote:Believe it or not, these happen to most people, although they prefer not to talk about it. They’re really quite common. But they happen as much outside Mormonism as in it.
Yeah, but why don’t they happen much to me anymore. I used to have a lot of these “weird” quasi “spiritual dreams.” They would actually make sense when I told a close confidant member of the church, through the spirit they would help me understand what they meant. I then would act upon them.
I had one above 8 months ago. I now understand why I had that dream, but I hope it isn’t too late since I did not follow it.
Quote:I am not sure the church can provide the meat to all. There is a personal journey element I don’t know how can be institutionalized.
I agree with Heber. This is why I ventured out on my own, but now I feel jaded because many of the general authorities such as Boyd K. Packer and Dallin H. Oaks say to avoid gospel hobbies, and not to become too learned. It’s too late. With a graduate degree, I find myself getting really bored in Priesthood, Sacrament Meeting, and Sunday School. Institute classes tend to be a little more stimulating, but you have to spend time with the young adult college crowd and much of it is “more entertaining,” than pure enlightenment. Besides you have to sacrifice an evening of your time to do so.
I am very disillusioned with how things are. I know the church won’t change to suit me, but it is impossible for me to change to fit the church. “To be learned is good if they follow the counsels of God.” (2 Nephi 9:29) So, as long as I follow the counsel of God I can be as learned as I want to be. Yet, I am burned out on being learned since those that would benefit are those that like intellectually stimulating conversations, and philosophy.
When the church wants to give milk all the time, My soul replies, “I’m lactose intolerant.”
I’m sure at age 18 you will have some young men chicken out. Mostly though I have to agree with the age change. I wish it would have been that way for me. I hated screwing up the second semester of my first year in college anticipating the mission. The anxiety was really high for me. I always thought that saying of serving the Lord first didn’t make sense since you had to serve yourself for a year-before you could even serve the Lord. The big thing I think this is able to curb are the 18-19 year olds who get serious with a dating partner. These are the guys and girls that are in the MTC and then quit the mission to go home and get married. I have seen it happen to personal acquaintences at least 5 times. It is wisdom to get these young people out on the missions before they are distracted by other things. Sure for the young men the hormones will be raging, but that is why they gave the horse pill viatamins to put a damper on the hormones (at least that was the theory).
I’m studying Buddhism right now, and I’m very interested in the 8 fold path. I am trying to become better at meditation, since my prayers are terrible (going through the motions with very little faith, with many repetitions, and not enough emotion). In the 7th part of the path you are supposed to have Right Mindedness. Essentially, our life is shaped by our minds. My mind is full of anger, and rage at times. I need to have right mindedness through meditation before I pray. The eighth part of the Buddhist eight fold path is: Right Concentration. Here, I need to exercise to focus my mind; focus my mind at sustaining my focus on a single point or objective. Essentially I need to find peace in a darkened world. It ain’t gonna happen without my attempts at right mindedness and right concentration which are essential for meditation. So, in other words, I need to work on refining my mediation before I can even get to prayer. I remember saying a prayer with my Buddhist friend (it was a chant in a different language). It was a set prayer on a card. We repeated it over and over again, I got so much peace from it. So, I don’t know what we prayed, but it brought me peace.
@ freenapples, you’re welcome. I know now when the EQP gives me crap about my home teaching, I can say with authority, “Sometimes home teaching interferes with the patriarchal order side of my priesthood responsibilities with my wife and family.”
Heber13 wrote Quote:I compare it to preparing to serve a mission. The church has tried to prepare youth earlier in life to prepare with scripture study and seminary and FSOY. But do they really prepare the youth for the emotional and spiritual stress the mission will require? Not sure they do that well, because the emphasis is on obedience and spirituality, then if you get on your mission you work it out as you go along (no one really properly prepares you for the mission experience).
I agree with Heber13. On my mission even though I though my spiritually was strong. I had difficult situations arise with the opposite sex where I wish I could have done more to avoid it or actually indulge in such “impure” impulses. Having 19-21 year-old men live together like monks isn’t ideal, especially when women were ready to throw themselves at you and even some members encouraged their daughters to flirt with you wasn’t helpful also. I remember one Elder returning after his mission to marry a Branch President’s daughter a month after he got home from his mission.
Sometimes a wonder how my life would be if I didn’t go on a mission. It seemed like I missed out on great job opportunities because of how the computer age just went off. I’m still behind. I guess sacrifice mean sacrificing my future. I would have never had to worry about the crazy transition back to normalcy afterward where I screwed up.
Additionally, I think the Church does a horrible job with RMs as well. You either strive to be peter-priesthood-like, or go off the deep end. It is really hard to keep it even keel. I remember jumping on my old-mission bike to see who was at the park to engage in a gospel discussion within the first 6 months of being home. I remember how difficult a re-transition was to normal life. I was almost placed on anti-depressants because in the mission I was somebody special, but when I got home I was a has-been-nobody, just like everyone else, without the apostolic commission of power. It felt like superman with kryptonite. I didn’t even recognize my friends anymore or think they were cool. They didn’t want to be friends they just wanted to move on and get married. I got paired-off and married because everyone else was doing it to, all my friends became RMs who had changed. For me it would have been nice if I could have taught early morning seminary or something while I was going to college, because then I could have at least satisfied the craving for teaching the gospel and helping others.
I’m curious. Do their patriarchal blessings talk about how they were among the noble and great one’s foreordained? It would be interesting if such a phrase was in their patriarchal blessings. I know one of the recent Prophets such as Howard W. Hunter or Gordon B. Hinckley had a part of his patriarchal blessing shared along those lines stated above. IMO most of them are administrators. They administer the gospel. I wouldn’t say they don’t heal the sick, since Neal A. Maxwell during his Leukemia days was blessing the sick daily. I just don’t know how many people were healed since that is a sacred thing. I feel that their are a few that may have a testimony of Jesus beyond what we have, but we can have as much a testimony of Jesus and be prophets lower case. I think it is a lot like President of the US-you do not want to be one of them. It is a stressful job and you have to give up a lot of your normalcy and privacy.
I have had some of the same thoughts of how they could translate the scriptures more, but then why would BYU need its dept. of ancient scripture? I heard general authorities talk to the Professors of Religion to gain insight at times. Joseph Smith was the only oracle that I know that set the trend for learning the bible from a Jewish Rabbi while in Kirtland or Nauvoo. The Rabbi had become Christian and taught at Oberlain College. The odd thing was that this did not line up with the JST in anyway. I think JS just wanted to learn from Joshua Seixes (I think his name was) Biblical Hebrew.
The point I’m making is you have dispensation heads and prophets who are administrators. Right now we have 15 administrators who hold the office of Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. It doesn’t mean they are as “powerful” as JS, or JC. Because their power is according to their faith. If JC and JS have more faith than they possess, obviously our modern day Prophets and Apostles have to be a wrung below on the Celestial ladder.
Mike wrote Quote:I don’t agree that the church doesn’t appeal to the “working class” or blue collar segment of society.
I joined the church while working on the assembly line at a GM plant.
Mike I think that is great that it was that way where you lived. I was just looking at the big picture on an article that was published on Sunday, May 13, 2012 in the Deseret News’ Faith section, titled: “Muslims, LDS are fastest-growing religious groups in the U.S.” by Joseph Walker.
The author quotes Dr. Marie Cornwall, a professor of Sociology at BYU, who states, “We’ve never really appealed to the blue-collar industrial demographic. These are the same people that Mitt Romney can’t seem to impress.”
So, yes I overgeneralized it to all working class people. It is more focused on the blue-collar industrial demographic.
