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From reading all of the statements above from an outside perspective I could determine: 1) If Jesus were on earth today, he would find 90% of the pharisees in the LDS Church.
2) Untrained bishops who don’t know what they are doing half of the time. (I have heard a member get two different opinions from two different bishops on the same matter).
3) LDS (cookie-cutter) are so socially into themselves that they cannot relate to those outside of the flock, or those within the flock that are quite different, or who don’t have the average existence of those within the LDS Cultural bubble.
anthropological term: ethnocentric.
4) Political Neutrality – Now how on earth were the members politically neutral when Joseph Smith ran for president? Political neutrality is the way of least resistance. So, maybe I should be like the Jehovah’s Witnesses and not vote at all – that would be politically neutral. I thought neutral meant you are neither for or against someone.
My grandmother opposed once. She was spoken to in private afterwards and gave her reasons. The person was sustained anyway and set apart. Boy did my Grandmother have guts. I think I ought to do the same thing when a similar case arises. Eddie, you wrote Quote:i loved her. i wanted to be with her. i went to god about marrying her, not him to me. and if it was my idea, but the odds of divorce are same? then what was point? if our faith professes to provide more joy than any other, yet i have equal odds of divorce, even if i served a mission and pray and go to church and live my covenants and on and on and on…
Those exact words were mine five years ago. I know how it feels. I divorced 5 years ago, got remarried 2 years ago, but the scent of the former still lingers since I see her in my son who I was a single father to for two years. I too, was sealed in the temple, and have a hard time going to the temple since I went with my former, who I loved dearly many a time.
My wife didn’t leave me, I had to take off with my son to save him from injury. My former suffered from severe mental illness, and did all I could to try to make it work to the point that my life was in jeopardy.
I had similar thoughts to yours. Yet, mine were more selfish. Your thoughts are legitimate. What helped me through mine was reading 1st Nephi and realizing that when Laman and Lemuel separate themselves from Nephi and Jacob, that was a type of divorce between brothers. Also, the war in heaven is the greatest divorce of all. I’m sure if the veil were to be lifted we would sorrow so much to remember those who we have lost eternally that we might feel the pains of a damned soul for a very long time.
I look around at the people in the ward who seem to have life so perfect. I think “try walking in my shoes, you would stumble in my footsteps.” Remember we are not judged against others. Everyone has their own trials unique to them. Get close to your Savior, he is your best friend. I saw the casting lots by the Roman soldiers as how my property was taken. My anguish realizing that my son would be without a mother and I would be without a wife was a Gethsemane for me. The betrayal of your former is like the betrayal of Judas Iscariot. I started thinking man it must have sucked for Jesus to have one of his inner circle betray him unto death. And yes divorce is the death of a marriage, a very sad thing. People that haven’t been through it have a hard time realizing this: Marriage is a vibrant thing with a life of its own and when it suffers, breaks, down, or falls apart it is like mourning a death.
Another book I enjoyed reading during my Divorce was the the Book of Job in the Bible. I realized that I did not have it too bad compared to him. Hang in their brother. Live for your daughters and rays of sun will come. Light will be at the end of the tunnel. It takes time.
Having read all of versions and not necessarily being troubled here is my take: 1st one is a protestantized version that is put forth by the Community of Christ, the typical Jesus forgives sins. Joseph knew what the Bible said about seeing God. The NT in at least three places says that no man can see God and live. I remember an Evangelical said to me that he didn’t have a hard time believing that JS saw Jesus, it was the seeing God part that bothered him. I believe JS was aware of this. He obviously read the Bible many times. It seems like this version is your typical I want to fit in with the rest of Christendom and minimize conflict.
The minister Jonathan Edwards had a vision of Jesus as well, so a vision of Jesus was not unheard of in the world of protestant Christianity.
The second is my favorite, and not too different from the canonized version in JS History.
As a student of history I realize that perceptions change on one’s own experience and that narratives and meanings may be changed over time on personalized history.
The third FV account is much like that. JS mentions the creeds were an abomination in Jesus’ sight. Joseph is better versed in scripture and even has Jesus quoting an Isaiah verse about how lips speak of him but hearts are far from him. I think Joseph knew that since this account would be the “official final word on the subject” that it becomes more complete and panoramic if you will.
I personally have had dreams that I cannot write down. There is too much blurred details and symbolism that I know once I start writing it down it changes what I saw to a lineal account that didn’t happen linearly in my consciousness, where it had very little meaning. The grandeur and awe of the event is too overwhelming to put into words. I add the meaning later and then when I read it, my memory of the event fades since it is now written down.
I have a difficult task upon me to write my mission history since I lost my journals that were stolen. I have such a different perception now that many events are skewed. Writing of poignant memories 18 years later is a difficult task.
After sharing the FV account too many times on my mission, I realize now that Joseph did not like to tell it since it was too personal. I think that a vision of God is too sacred to even put into words, especially to an ever skeptical world that slams any vision of God that is outside of the Bible context as false, because of the scriptures that state no man can see God and live. The FV account is used to dispel the creeds of apostate Christendom and the Trinity as taught by such creeds. It also establishes that JS was a Prophet because of the Experience. (See also Isaiah Chapter 6 where he sees the Lord and has his sins forgiven). The third account has his historical context like the second one. It has a solid purpose to slam the apostasy and to establish credence to the Restoration and that a new dispensation was ushered in by God the Father and Jesus.
It is clearly used to teach in a simple linear fashion something that was more complex and layered in nature.
Side notes:
Compared to the Story of the Virgin of Guadalupe which was said to have occurred in 1531 in Tepeyac Mexico (that story did not get written down until 1648). Joseph Smith has the vision in 1820 and it gets recorded in 1832, 1835, and then in 1838. The Nican Mopohua “Here it is Narrated about the Virgin of Guadlupe’s appearance to an indigenous peasant in 1531 was written and published way after, yet it is the foundation of Mexican Catholicism. Thus, I don’t see many problems in the honesty, purpose, and historicity of the First Vision accounts and they can fit as an amalgamation as cited above. A lot changes in a boys mind from age 14 to age 30. The significance of the vision had more weight as Joseph was 30 compared to when he was 14. When Joseph was 14 he was more worried about his personal salvation. By age 30 Joseph was concerned about the longevity of the Church especially answering the published anti-Mormon accounts, especially by Alexander Campbell of the Disciples of Christ movement. Certainly the FV had to be canonized to solidify the Church’s longevity as a legitimate faith tradition and solidify JS’s tenure as prophet-especially of the restoration.
cwald wrote Quote:I think his premise is that we should be BETTER than our Christian neighbors.
Cwald I agree. Through my observations of others, and world religions, I realize that the Mormon arrogance is brought down by Catholics, Buddhists, and Evangelicals who outshine us in how they live, and their attitudes toward life.
In watching a documentary called Buddha and the Bodhi Tree, a Catholic priest acknowledges his failure to live as generously and graciously as the Buddhists he is supposed to convert. (He resides in South East Asia) He struggles with the fact that he perceives the Buddhists as more Christian than he is.
Further, I know of many people in other faith traditions that are far better at living the gospel than I am. For these reasons I don’t see why missionary work is important to convert such. I would rather turn my attention to someone struggling more than me, so what I had to offer them would be more relevant to their state of being. Yes, I am out done by my Buddhist friends, yet at the same time they realize that we are all human and prone to mistakes.
No man is infallible as the gospel he claims to follow. Even Howard W. Hunter said something like I put my pants on one leg at a time acknowledging that he is as human as anyone else.
My first point: After reading this I’m confused. 2. I’ve seen philosophers mingle scripture as they teach subjects like evolution and religion from a philosophical point of view (Stephen Jay Gould an evolutionist has done this).
3. I think it is a prohibition against priest craft generally.
4. I teach scripture mingled by the philosophies of men to get my point across, or to turn philosophies of men on its head.
5. Philosophy itself is not bad, it is persuading people down a false path that is wrong, much like Korihor or Nehor in the BOM.
Wayfarer wrote: Quote:i don’t think I would understand your testimony either…. the savior as political messiah? …who will come in time to get you job if you don’t get one on your own?
i’m not sure i follow you…
1. Jesus’ second coming -Jesus will not be the Lamb like his first coming, but that he will come as the Lion of Judah to wipe out corporate greed, inequality, suffering, loneliness, unemployment, and any injustice. Babylon will fail, all physical governments will fail and fight against Jesus.
2. The Jews wanted someone like Moses to free them from the oppressive Romans, just as Moses freed the Isrealites from the Egyptians.
3. Latter-day Saints need to shift their view of the Messiah from the NT Jesus to the future Jesus. Yes, we need to live like Jesus did, but that does not mean we get beat up all the time. Even Jesus stood up against the money changers and Pharisees. He even destroyed the Roman Legion’s swine at Gennesert (Jews did not consume Pigs and historians claim that the swine herd belonged to the Roman legion that was stationed nearby. The devils who possessed the swine responded: “We are Legion”
4. I’m for Jesus as the Lion of Judah who is a militaristic messiah-to-come.
5. Members of the church are not ready for this as yet but I am and hope it happens in my lifetime. I’m tired of getting kicked down in life.
Wayfarer wrote: Quote:8. In the early to mid 20th century, a battle in the church was fought between those who saw truth as “that which is” versus those who saw truth as “doctrine: that which has been received”. BH Roberts, James Talmadge, Hugh B Brown, and David O McKay were leaders of the “that which is” camp, and Joseph Fielding Smith, Harold B. Lee, Ezra Taft Benson, Bruce R. McConkie, and Boyd K Packer were in the “doctrine” camp.
9. With the death of each member of the “that which is” camp, the “doctrine” camp increased the stakes of “doctrine”. e.g. “Man his origin and destiny”, “Mormon Doctrine”, and especially, the rise of correlation and CES as the means to “indoctrinate” the church.
I really appreciate this synopsis. I feel like I am in the “that which is” camp. I too am a constructivist in my thinking. I feel that the indoctrination “old school” camp explains why there are so many feuds within quorum’s or groups in the church. My father is a indoctrination kind of guy, and I am “that which is” person. So this will help me with any future gospel discussions. I will apply this tool in assessing where people are at, it will help me avoid conflicts in church.
Thanks again for the post.
Mere Christianity by CS Lewis Simply Jesus by NT Wright
The Forest People by Colin M. Turnbull (It’s anthropology, but the Forest People worship the Forest (nature is their God = animism) It’s a good read about a pygmie group of the Belgian Congo back in the late 6os. Their life is a lot simpler than ours but you realize their belief system is as valid as our and you get envious because of their simplicity.
These are just a few.
Happy book hunting.
Thanks to all of you. Today was a great day for me. I wanted to bear my testimony in church, but because of the circumstances I could not. I don’t think people would understand my testimony, nor would they be ready for it. However, I received a stronger testimony than I ever had today about the Savior as the political Messiah who will come again. Right now I am okay with not having a job; When the Savior comes their will be zero unemployment. LOL, I took solace in this thought, but I’m sure I will have employment before this happens. Whew! I always seem to survive and have what I need, I just miss the ease of living when I could buy the Disneyland pass, and take extra scenic drives, and have an extra vacation.
I am becoming comfortable with my gospel scholarship and my intellectual endeavors. I am trying to take a balanced approach to such and have started to feel satisfaction from this.
Thanks for your thoughts and ideas,
Jamison
Brown wrote Quote:You are free to say and act as you please, but you are not free from the consequences.
I agree with this statement. Back in the late 1990s a business window in a highly Vietnamese area in Santa Ana, California had a Ho Chi Minh picture in the window (a symbol of communist Vietnam). Many of the Vietnamese community (the non-communists were protesting such a picture). Perhaps the store owner wasn’t too bright in doing what he did by posting such an icon of communism, however he had as much right to post the picture as the people protesting it.
I am grateful for freedom of expression and speech especially when it “ruffles a few feathers.” I am glad to know that America is very much awake and active in exercising freedom.
There was so much negative press about the Chick-A-Fil-A campaign that I thought that Chick-A-Fil-A was pro gay marriage. It took me a few days to figure it out on my own. Because of all the press I might want some chicken because they serve chicken, not because of all the hoop-la. But on the other hand, the hoop-la actually makes me not want the chicken. Maybe I”ll go to a burger joint because they have bible verses on the bottom of their cups; will I get John 3:16 or Proverbs 3:5?
HSAB wrote: Quote:Complicating your situation further, last night I was made aware that you may be talking about the temple very negatively with others.
The key word here is may. It is he said she said. It is rumored or gossiped that you said. I cannot believe that a SP would say such a thing. You have a testimony you are worthy. It is BS that you are not able to get sealed in the temple quite yet.
For about two years I had a really hard time with the temple. I would quote Jesus as He is greater than the temple. I would say things aloud to others that I don’t really see what is so great, when Jesus himself said he is greater than the temple. I can still have a relationship with the Lord outside the temple. The way is Jesus. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. I have a testimony of Him. I go to the temple for meditation, to read the scriptures without distraction to get personal revelation. I am not overly concerned about the ordinances too much. I haven’t even gone to do an endowment session for over a year now; it just takes way to long in my busy life.
Hang in their. I’m sorry, I really am.
Side note.
I remember teaching temple prep once to a couple that had just joined the church who were in their 80s. I remember teaching about the three degrees of glory and I asked the sister, “So what do you think about all of this “new” information?” She replied, “I don’t really know beyond heaven and hell (she meant paradise and spirit prison), but she continued, “If I have to know it so I can get married to this guy (pointing to her husband) for all time and eternity, than it is worth it.”
Now I was stupefied. She had me. It isn’t what we know, or even claim to know; it is what we desire. Righteous desires coupled with faith in Jesus Christ–the grand leap of faith is what propels us–not knowledge in the abstract.
It was written FWIW, we don’t have to like the City Creek Mall or think it’s a good idea. There isn’t a requirement here in this community to be cheer leaders for it.I think it is just like Disneyland wishing it could buy up the surrounding areas of Anaheim to expand Disney influence. I wish Disneyland could since their are so many dives around Anaheim, and strip clubs. Opposing Disney was a big reason Walt expanded in Florida. Walt Disney got the land pretty dang cheap and put tons of Disney plans to work on it.
I think Nauvoo is sort of like the LDS version of Disney’s expansion to Florida. Do members of the Church complain about the Nauvoo area being rebuilt? I haven’t been to Nauvoo yet, nor the City Center. I’m not reaping the benefits of either, but I am glad they were established. Do members of the Church get angry over the new Mormon Battalion Memorial in San Diego? All of these endeavors convey a healthy economical climate that the church has created for itself and the federal government is jealous. I think with the Crystal Cathedral going bankrupt in Orange County, California it is safe to say that the LDS Church is doing a better job with raising revenue and managing its resources than Reverend Schuller, the country of Greece, and the US government for that matter.
I don’t mind the church putting money into changing the world for the better. I don’t care if they used my tithing funds either. The Church is wealthy because of the law of tithing and that is a good thing. Governments around the world could learn a thing or two about the law of tithing. I don’t want to reduce this to money, however, temporal change costs money. But, it is because of spiritual commitment of paying tithes by faith that it could be done. Without the spirituality of Latter Day Saints no welfare program, no humanitarian aide, and no City Center could have been built.
Quote:Brian Johnston wrote, “A place that is quiet and ritually separated from the rest of our life, a sanctuary of sorts, is a perfect place to receive inspiration and personal revelation. I don’t know about the specifics of your experience SamBee. But if nothing else, those moments are very insightful.”
I once had an experience (post mission/post marriage) in my early twenties when I was very distraught over something (I cannot remember it now) and I fled to the nearest place that I thought was holy and tranquil: A Buddhist Temple. I soon realized that since I did not make much of a sacrifice to get there (it took me 15 minutes, I wasn’t dressed up-I was probably wearing shorts and a T-shirt). I started looking at the gardens and the statues. In my heart and mind I realized that none of these symbols gave me solace. I had no cultural connection to that place other than the fact I went there for a geography class to get course credit on a write up. I soon realized that to get the solace I needed I needed to go home get dressed in my church clothes and head to the temple. All I remember afterwards was that I learned a profound lesson. The temple is a sacred place to me, and I found peace there and my problem was minimized. So, yes I believe there is sanctity there and peace.
Quote:Sam Bee Wrote, “It’s interesting… the first time I was in the temple, I didn’t get any of those bitchy thoughts that have a nasty tendency of intruding. I didn’t feel tempted… but now… been through the Celestial Room… well”
We are still free to think inside the temple. I have had “bitchy thoughts” there as well. When I had an argument with my ex-mother in-law about points of doctrine between general Christianity and Mormon beliefs. I went to the temple and during the whole endowment session, I was rebuked by the Lord for being so arrogant and argumentative.
there are times that in the temple I will actually have certain secular songs going through my mind, songs that I didn’t even listen to on the way to the temple. Mostly I listen to Christian music or even the MOTAB on the way to the temple to avoid light mindedness. At least the songs weren’t too bad then I thought, “perhaps the temple takes me to my happy place and some of those songs are reminiscent of my relaxation and happy – good-feel-vibes.
Also it is good to remember that one Sabbath day I went out on a walk near a concert and I was feeling the spirit listening to rock music on the Sabbath. And I had no regrets. I think we place to much on the holy and pure and fail to realize that much of our mundane existence will be within the holy confines of the Heavenly areas. Remember the “same sociality that exists here will exist there.” It just goes to show that when we die, we take our knowledge and experience with us. We take it into the temple, it will more than likely go to heaven, just more refined.
