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Old-Teimer wrote Quote:Doctrinally, 8-years-old is a general approximation for accountability. There are 20-year-olds who aren’t accountable in our eyes (and we get that and allow for it all the time)
Yes, what kind of conundrum am I in when I think about my son who has Autism. Do I baptize him “to fulfill all righteousness”? or do I just wait and see to see if he really understands the whole process. Chances are, he ain’t gonna get it.
He’s real just listen to Osam Bin Laden when he talks about how he envisioned how the world trade centers would be destroyed (only the Master of the deadly Secret) would pull off something like that, and Adolf Hitler as well. Many of the Middle Eastern religions such as Islam and Zorastrianism claim his existence. Stalin was greatly influenced by him as well. Jesus has to have a Nemesis otherwise what would be the point. I like the Opposition in all Things doctrine it makes sense, even within Existentialist philosophy although it denies the existence of any metaphysical presence, but the premise is true if hot exists so must cold. husband of 1 father of 4 wrote Quote:A Seventh-day Adventist plays on Saturday = going to hell
Actually the seventh Day adventists have a good stance on M. They say it is necessary, healthy, and necessary to avoid mental problems.
I would have to admit that M is very addicting. Also, I realize the change of Church Policy on it. According to Spencer W. Kimball in Faith Precedes the Miracle, (I paraphrase) that a young men who is found doing this is not worthy to go on a mission. However, the practice in the mission was that you could not be sent home for M. The counsel was to “cage the tiger.” I had a bishop tell me once that it is better to do the M than to get a girl PG.
The only thing I didn’t like is when two-bishops ago asked me to read the Boyd K. Packer Talk on To the Young Men. Basically my Bishop wanted me to live the same standard a 12-18 year old TBM who has never had sexual relations. Then, I was counseled to exercise. This was wrong, since exercise increases testosterone which increases the urge. As a divorced man, who had experienced sex, I found myself going back to my wife (since masturbation was evil), but to a certain extent (sex with a wife I was separated from would become fornication according to Brigham Young, so I guess you just go with the lesser of two evils.
Loved the thread ya all, Many youth have gone through torment because of the Church policy on M.
Tom stated, Quote:For me, the primary fallacy was my assumption that I could divide people into “the good guys” and “the bad guys”. Reality just doesn’t work that way. There are no perfect people, perfect books, perfect systems, or perfect organizations on earth.
I would agree with you Tom, for I have been a hypocrite most of my life. I used to refer to myself as the Mormon Pharisee. Recently, I was humbled by a gospel principles lesson, and I know it is because I myself rationalize a lot and life to me is not black- and-white. I think it works great for little children to see things as black-and-white, but once you reach adulthood, you need to really be able to discover things for yourself through the intellect and the rational mind. I remember a bunch of times I got duped by salespeople and lost up to a couple hundred dollars. Once, I could rationalize and argue with them and ask them questions to let them know I wasn’t gonna be duped, they left me alone, and I didn’t get ripped off. Aren’t we all just a bunch of salespeople who sell our point of view and stand our ground to protect ourselves from being duped by a charlatan? I am very skeptical of people in my ward (the bishop, various teachers, leadership, etc.). Whenever they ask me to do something, I always try to visualize the motive and feel it out before I say yes or no. Or, I try to counter whatever is asked to me with another question to FIND-OUT more (learned this in the MTC). I already have my lifestyle set, my career set, my family set the way I want it–whatever enters into my pond that seems to cause a negative ripple effect, I toss it out immediately.
That’s why I only go to a few ward activities at all. I think I only go to two ward socials: The Christmas Party and another Spring Gathering. I signed up for some activities, but I make my own social activities. I don’t need the church to socialize or have fun. Actually, my work Christmas party was more fulfilling than my ward one. If I want an activity I get my family and then we go do an activity. We are ostracized anyway, and I don’t have any “buddies” at church. I go for my family and I don’t go for my family. One time I was asked, Why weren’t you at Church.” I replied, “Because I was sick and I had two sick kids as well.” I was hoping my inactivity would be unnoticed, but I guess they are worried about my activity. With my first wife, I used to rival some of the church activities by having parties, but then it only backfired–I got called into the activities committee because they found out that my wife and I liked to have fun and could put a decent party together. Another alternative, “get your own campsite near the one they are at and show up with your daughters–It’s a free country. I believe he is both. Every symbol of Christ’s messianic role and reign had been fulfilled or will be fulfilled. I just think that because we are not Israelites in the literal sense of ancient Israel as it relates to the Old Testament, we miss a lot of the imagery. For instance, just what is “living water” and who in our day really gives a crap. But, in the context of ancient Israel living water was the only way one who was a leper could be ritualistically cleansed (Leviticus 14:5). Living water was also the only way that one who was defiled by the dead could be ritualistically cleansed as well (Numbers 19:17). We can’t understand Christ and his mission fully without understanding the Law of Moses and how Christ fulfilled it. Mormonism/Christianity is Judaism’s fulfillment. For Jesus cleansed lepers who no one else wanted to touch or be in proximity to (Jesus is the living water here). Jesus raised Jairus’ daughter from the dead as well as Lazarus who was entombed for four days (Jesus again was the living water here as well). His resurrection that gives us all immortality again ties into “death-that makes us all unclean” and Christ is the “living water” that cleanses us ritualistically from such state by giving us rebirth literally as a resurrected being someday. I have a lot of holy envy for the Jews who hold Moses in such high esteem. On a bad day, when I am feeling really lousy about life in general, or am super critical of the church, I ask myself, “No wonder the Jews love Moses so much.” His law was paramount since we have failed as a society in general; people all around bear false witness, commit adultery, steal, break the sabbath, etc. As a society as a whole we cannot even live the basic ten commandments, so hasn’t Christianity failed. Then I have to go full circle to the mercy of Christ, yes and that is why we have to have Christ since none of us foolish mortals can live all of those laws completely. Today, I left church depressed thinking how dishonest I am and yet honesty was the gospel doctrine lesson.” Yet, I am honest to acknowledge that I need Christ because without him I am a vile sinner that should go to hell in a hand basket. “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.”
I would have to say yes. I experienced it once from the perspective of performing an exorcism aka using the priesthood with another priesthood holder (he was voice) and the depressed spirit did leave the person we were blessing. A complete change. At another time a scary man (who stole from my family’s business for drugs) came to our front door, and after my dad said the name Jesus Christ, I was scared so much that it was like I heard a howling wind (my animal instincts took over) and I just went to the farthest end of my house in the service porch, and fell to the fetal position and felt as if I was being attacked by unseen evil. I don’t even know why I was doing it. Later, my grandmother was telling me that I needed to square my arm and tell Satan to depart in the name of Jesus. I just know that last part made me feel better, but I don’t think I was actually possessed, I think I was bombarded and nearly possessed.
The last experience I had was on my mission. I was in my last area, and had about three more months to go. I had to have the new mission president give me a special priesthood blessing, because I basically gave up and was tired of being tempted and I said something to effect that I would just let Satan win because I was tired of fighting. At this point I was very despondent and broken down. I regretted what I said to myself. (pretty much at this point I was probably a little unstable psychologically) I was burned out from being a missionary and giving a 110% and not realizing much results for my efforts. I struggled with my own personal problems and half the time didn’t even feel worthy enough to be on a mission. I thought I was demon possessed, but when the mission president gave me a blessing, it was pretty much a non-empathetic blessing that said to just get back in the saddle and buck up. Serve no-matter how I felt, do good no matter how I felt. Actually after that I just changed my attitude and did what he said, and yes the last part of my mission I had more fun, was more carefree, and said to myself, “Dang, for 21 months I was just too uptight and a stiff to have much fun. I was still working hard, had a baptism and became a better person than the robotic Elder that I was programmed to be at the MTC. I was actually hoping to be demon possessed at this point, but to my chagrin I was not. Even though I said something stupid as an set-apart missionary, mere words could not get me demon possessed. I would actually have to have done something.
I wish I would have read this post before I accepted a new calling. i think I may have accepted it prematurely. I felt good about it, but I should have shared it with my wife first (now I don’t know If she is supportive), yet she didn’t share her call with me after she accepted it (I would have opposed it). I already discussed with my wife what I thought the bishop was gonna call me to. We discussed the possibilities and we were correct. So, I did do an advance screen of the possible callings and she felt okay with them so I didn’t consult with her because of our previous discussion. I though she wanted a man that would accept callings. I did realize that there are things I dislike about the call, but we are planning on moving in 5 months anyway, so I pretty much didn’t care (I was actually getting quite bored with church) and perhaps this calling will keep me motivated. I feel your pain, I was divorced because my sons safety was at stake and I did not want to spend six months getting him from CPS. I prayed about it (like you) and knew I had to get divorced. I know it is a difficult decision. I went back to my former at least 4 times and each time I practically compromised my son, and then had to start all over (because my dang emotions got in the way). I would take the Bishop up on worshiping somewhere else; another ward in another stake. Moving to another ward in another stake during my divorce was the best thing that happened to me. I was in a ward where a bishop had helped many men that had gone through divorce. My “new’ bishop was non-judgmental, my new Elder’s quorum president was non-judgmental, as well as my home teacher. I don’t necessarily see what he told you was an “unofficial excommunication,” but it sounds like he was telling you to worship somewhere else. I don’t ever talk to people from the ward that I lived in when divorced. I cut ties with all of the people, since they were tainted by the lies of my former. My former lied to the Primary Presidency about my conduct. When I went and talked to my former Bishop he counselled both of us that if we didn’t learn to fix things then we would probably just perpetuate things into a new relationship and not learn. But, with mental illness that person either gets help and stays with the help or they become irreconcilable, unstable, unsafe, and detrimental to family, friends, and society at large. The money you pay for the best attorney possible will outweigh anything some Bishop says. You after all, are the priesthood line for your family, not your bishop (he is the one that should be reprimanded from higher up). Also, he doesn’t have jurisdiction over your marriage, the state in which you live does, and that is why they have family law attorneys and judge’s that hear family law cases. Once you see how “legal” marriage really is, the religious side should not outweigh your choice to divorce (if your marriage is beyond repair, the marriage is dead already). As members of the church we forget that the “law” does matter regarding marriage, and that marriage is not solely a spiritual or religious institution. Yeah, HT is a sensitive topic. I sometimes envy the Catholic Church’s Godparents idea. Here, people are designated practically family to you for the rest of your life after you are born. I can’t believe my friend’s godparents still come around to every birthday party and are really “there” for him. If you want a good chuckle about home teaching watch a U-tube video that shows a spliced video of Tom Cruise (advocating for Scientology) and then it shows the interviewer (obviously spliced) making the video’s topic to be on home teaching. I think it is hilarious. Yeah, whenever this topic comes up in priesthood, my first instinct is to bail, but then I decide to share the positive influences of home teaching I had been blessed by as an individual and also the positives I was able to do in life. I think it is crappy that the Church quantifies HT. When I was in an EQ presidency I always tried to make it about the people. My question was “How are your families?” I would “make-up” the numbers from what types of responses I would get. If I got a long pause, and a um-I knew they didn’t see them and I said, well just try to give them a call if you can. I probably counted chats at church (without a true home visit). I hated the technicality BS. The best was when I was a missionary and this member family had us over for dinner, and I forgot to confirm the dinner appointment with the member since we got into our apartment late. The member was really frazzled and said, “Why didn’t you confirm.” I said, “you signed the calendar,” and I didn’t get your call until late last night. The wife said, “All I can really make is tuna fish sandwiches.” I replied: “well, I guess that is better than our mac and cheese that we make.” Then, I replied knowing the brother was the home teacher of this new convert family–“By the way, did you know brother so-and-so’s house burned down last night.” Boy did that guy feel like a jackass.
Here’s the thing: When you are a full-time missionary your job 24 hours is to do retention, teaching the gospel, basically home teaching. When you are a home teacher your priorities are: How is my own Family? Am I doing a good job keeping food on the table for my own Family? Can I get my own sorry self to church on a regular basis? Do my wife and I even get a date night, when I’m going out with another man to see another family that I am assigned to see? After writing this last question, I now feel like a jackass-since I have home taught for an hour with my HT companion, yet I didn’t even take my own wife out on a date for the month. Where are my stinking priorities? If I don’t have time for the most important people in my life? How in the heak am I gonna have time to HT? These are the questions Elder’s quorum presidencies need to ask their volunteer home teachers in Elder’s Quorum and High Priests. Maybe if the EQP and HPGLs asked such questions of their Quorum members to show that they care and that they are having their own personal issues, then perhaps a change would be made in Home teaching “numbers’ and “attitudes”. The attitude is: Why can’t you get going and do your HT, are you lazy, scared, or past feeling, or just don’t care. There is not empathy at all for those who don’t do it. I don’t even hear, great job guys; I hadn’t gone for like three months and then went for three months and then I just heard the same thing. So was I just picking up someone’s slack?
Thanks for the replies, it makes me feel better that my divorce wasn’t a transgression (though it beats me down like one), I guess I kick myself down for not fully living the “full and Perfect law.” Sometimes I think that Christianity as a whole is a failure since, most people cannot even live the basic 10 commandments which consist of the Law of Carnal commandments. No wonder many Jewish people see the Law of Moses supreme, because truly if followed the Law of Moses is a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ just like Paul taught. I guess in a lot of ways we still follow the Law of Moses, since Moses permitted divorce just like modern day Israel (The Church). The Saints in Christ’s Day lived a higher law than us, Divorce was only permitted in the case of adultery (See Matt. 5:31-32). This was a fun test. Here are my results: 1. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (100%)
2. Jehovah’s Witness (88%)
3. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (80%)
4. Hinduism (79%)
5. Orthodox Judaism (78%)
6. Sikhism (78%)
7. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (77%)
8. Mahayana Buddhism (74%)
9. Orthodox Quaker (69%)
10. Baha’i Faith (67%)
11. Jainism (66%)
12. Theravada Buddhism (65%)
13. Eastern Orthodox (65%)
14. Roman Catholic (65%)
15. Neo-Pagan (64%)
16. Seventh Day Adventist (62%)
17. Islam (61%)
18. Unitarian Universalism (58%)
19. Liberal Quakers (57%)
20. Reform Judaism (54%)
21. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (47%)
22. New Age (45%)
23. New Thought (34%)
24. Scientology (29%)
25. Taoism (27%)
26. Secular Humanism (25%)
27. Nontheist (19%)
I refuse to wear white shirts now. I feel why should I, I’m not a Puritan. The LDS faith is so Puritanical at times; dark colors and white shirts. At least the Amish can have beards. I keep a goatee. The comment I got was: iIs that a Sigmund Freud look? My response was: “No it is a George Albert Smith look”. I remember visiting a ward in Berkeley, California and the the Bishop had a full beard. I was like, Right on, man. When I wear a sweater, I don’t wear a tie. I don’t like wearing ties, but I realize one day out of the week isn’t gonna kill me. Hopefully, the dress code at church as well as for Elders get a little lax, but I don’t think it will happen anytime soon. cwald stated, Quote:Oh, one other minor itch. To EVERYONE who is not LDS, and even to many who are (me) — comparing Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ is VERY offensive.
I’m sorry people outside of the faith of Mormonism have that issue, dang I compare the Dali Lama to Jesus, Mother Teresa to Jesus. Alexander Dumas compared the Count of Monte “Cristo.” to Jesus. Nathaniel Hawthorne’s character Billy Budd was another Christlike character. Be it a historical or fictional characte, I think there are plausible comparisons that one can make to Christ. I just don’t think people outside of Mormonism even know much about Joseph Smith, and what they do learn is second hand “trash” they learned from some damned protestant gainsayer minister who is threatened by a 14 year old farm boy that came from an obscure township in upstate New York. Jesus was just as controversial in his day as Joseph Smith was in his. Both Jesus and Joseph Smith are controversial today. Oops, I did another comparison! Revolution bring it on! I’m grateful people like Jesus and Joseph Smith created revolutions in religious thought. It is much needed in a time where Oprah and Dr. Oz are the new “messiah’s of Pop Culture via TV and the world wide web.
