[Jazernorth]

Cadence wrote:

Certainly because in the Millennium it will all be sorted out and those who could not do things now can do the extra credit necessary to get a passing grade. But if you could do in now and do not,well then you are in a heap of trouble.

I’m sorry, but this can’t be true. This seems to be the normal answer that TBM give and I can’t accept it. I can argue a bunch of “what-if” scenarios that would make this statement become confusing and hard to justify.

If God does exist and pays attention to us (still undetermined by me), then he will be the judge and there is no amount of “doing” or “not doing” according to man that will “secure” or “not secure” someone into the Celestial Kingdom.

[Jazernorth]

I’m a bit confused here.

Are you saying that your family, and church for that matter, doesn’t like it when you give service outside of the church?

[Jazernorth]

Donna wrote:

Thanks for making me laugh.

I know I don’t have to serve to have a temple recommend. I am thinking of going to another ward and I am wondering if I do how to get my TC and pay tithing if I stop attending my home ward. Where do you volunteer to do scouts at?

You’re welcome! Pay tithing through the headquarters, it is easy and you will always get a receipt and final tax form to your house. No interaction with the bishopric all year, unless you do tithing settlement.

You can attend any ward you want and still be considered “active”. There is no requirement that is must be your home ward. If someone asks, just say that you want to go to this ward. Utah is finicky about that, but if you can just stand up to them by saying “I go here or I don’t go at all”, they will back off. My dad had to step in when someone from my home area was attending our ward instead of their “assigned” ward. He had to remind the bishop from both wards that there isn’t a requirement on the temple recommend interview that you ‘must’ attend your assigned ward.

Scouts is easy to volunteer. Though in Utah is can be a bit more complicated because of the Mormon involvement. Decide which age you like, cubs or boy scouts. From there you can contact the scout office and ask what they need for help. They always need help. You can also find another pack or troop that is sponsored by another church and help them. I have found that Troops outside of the church have a lot more activities than the troops in the church, so they need a lot more adult volunteers. You can also become a trainer. This takes more time as you have to gain experience as a leader. The trainers will go from district to district and teach leaders about scouting. Lots of fun to be had with Scouts.

MOPS is Mothers of Preschoolers http://www.mops.org/

There are a few groups in Utah, you just have to find them at the non-mormon churches. Usually non-denominational churches host them. If you have a child younger than kindergarten, then you may find MOPS to be really fun. I love having my wife go to it.

[Jazernorth]

Oh, the rescue. I just love the rescue.

This is where it takes some practice to understand when people are faking it and when they are genuine. I’m OK at it, but could be better. Usually when members invite us to dinner it is to feel us out and see if they need to “help get Jay” more active. I go, don’t say much (I’m an introvert anyway) and leave. Usually they never bother us again. Well, this one family invited us over after we had just moved into the ward (by the way, I pay the young men to move me so I never feel guilty for not helping with the moves). I did my duty of going (you know wife always wants me to go and a happy wife is a happy life). Two weeks later I am talking to the husband about guns and ammo and shooting. Eventually he tells me he doesn’t go to church. He doesn’t say why, and I couldn’t care less. We are shooting buddies now. That was one family dinner that I completely misread.

Anyway, to dodge the rescue is pretty easy generally. Most people will just “try” to talk to you in church about something that they think you are interested. You can usually tell they don’t know the subject, so you know they are faking it. Those you be cordial, but when they ask about the missionaries or ward missionaries to “practice” the lessons with you, you say no.

I haven’t had an issue with dodging them.

[Jazernorth]

Donna wrote:

where do you pay your tithing

This one is easy. The church as this electronic payment method that you fill out a form, then send payments from your bank to the church. It is great to keep prying eyes from how much you donate.

Funny Story: my last tithing settlement was hilarious. When we went in to the Bishop he asked if we were full tithe payers, I said “yes”. He squinted, squirmed, hemmed, hawwed, then stopped. He didn’t say anything, just looked at the paper in front of him. I knew exactly what was on the paper. It had a big ole 0 (ZERO) for donations. I started to chuckle and then he got really confused. I had to tell him, I couldn’t make it more uncomfortable. Finally I told him all my money goes straight to the church head quarters. He had no idea that could be done. So, I had to explain the process. He proceeded to tell his clerk, then the clerk said “yeah, lots of people do that”.

Sorry – side funny note there.

Donna wrote:

and how do you get your recommend.

There is NO requirement you have to serve to get a temple recommend.

Donna wrote:

If the ward doesn’t want us I am sure we can volunteer some where.

I volunteer for scouts (outside of the church), community clubs, and my wife is involved with MOPS (not LDS related) and PTA.

My additional 2 cents.

[Jazernorth]

Thanks for this discussion.

I remember the first time I realized that the church leadership were just men who woke up and put pants on in the morning, just like the rest of us. It was an odd experience, but still one to remember.

This was well before I had my falling out with the “spirit”. It is good to hear others complete and agree with my thoughts on the prophets, current and old. Noah was in a drunken sumper when he got inspirations. Kind of weird I know. Every once in a while I will see a preacher drink alcohol and I twinge, but that is from many years of being wired/programmed to think that church leadership is supposed to be holier than me. I don’t think that was the intention, but more a byproduct of how the gospel is taught.

This has helped as when I do the temple recommend interview I get itchy trying to say yes to the “do you believe {current prophet} is a prophet of god” question. I reasonably could answer yes, but I always had that little thought back there that said he wasn’t a perfect prophet. Hah, typing that makes me think I’m off my rocker, but I do know better.

All that said, I’m with the above that these are men who, if we met them we would be glad to learn from them, but they are men nonetheless.

[Jazernorth]

Donna wrote:

I have tried to be patient with my ward. I am at the point I just want to move. It isn’t possible . The ward members fight over just about everything. I have never been in a ward like this. My husband finally got a home teaching beat. His partner has set appointments and won’t work with my husbands schedule. My husband can’t help that is work schedule is weird. He ask for a new partner and was told no. You tell you partner to go when you can go. The partner is still going without my husband.

My suggestion is to let it go and not worry about home teaching. He can go if it fits his schedule, otherwise don’t worry about it. I talked to my partner twice, explained that I would go on Sundays only and that I would “teach” the lesson. I volunteer to teach so that the lesson is short (or non-existent) and we can actually get to know the families. So far I haven’t gone home teaching and I couldn’t care less.

Donna wrote:

My visit teacher got mad because I wasn’t home when she called to make an appointment. She came when I wasn’t home.

If I would have known she was coming I would have tried to be home. The next month she didn’t even call or knock on the door. just left the message. Then she told the RS president I wouldn’t let her come. Now i have no visiting teachers.

These types of people exist everywhere. You just find “more” of them in Utah because of the density of members. I wouldn’t worry about it not answering the phone. My wife hardly answers the phone (I have to call 3 times in a row just to get her to pick up). Her visiting teachers have to leave messages and quite often they quit visiting her because they “can’t” make an appointment. She doesn’t care if she sees her visiting teachers. On the other side, she is very diligent in making her visiting teaching appointments. Instead of calling, she will talk to them at church and make the appointments. Again though, she lets stupid crap slide on by her.

Donna wrote:

My husband is going inactive and I am too. We need some friends in the ward and a calling. The Bishop calls us in. Ask us if we want a calling. Then never follows through.

Is this how all wards are in Utah? I am at the point I don’t know if I want to continue trying to go to church. It is too stressful. I know you are just to suppose to pretend everything is wonderful at church but I don’t think I can do it any more.

I wouldn’t expect to much. Wards are finicky in how they function and are completely different from one to the next. Instead of “finding friends at church”, we find friends elsewhere. When we lived in Utah my wife found friends at Mountain Valley Church (some non denominational church). They were great friends and had really good parties. We didn’t attend their church, but we did hang out with them at their parties. My recommendation is to join some club or organization to make friends. You probably will be much happier with your choices.

There is my 2cents worth.

[Jazernorth]

Here are my 2cents on your suggestions.

SilentDawning wrote:

B. Portray realistic views of local and current leaders’ rather than the supernatural views talks keep emphasizing. This will prevent loss of faith when leaders invariably act like mortals with weaknesses.

Agreed! Though, I quit doing this many years ago. I respect the office and work, but I realize they are just men who have problems just like the rest of us. I teach my child this same thing so they don’t have to go through the same realization I did.

SilentDawning wrote:

3. Make chapel cleaning voluntary rather than assigned and assumed.

You can say that again. I absolutely refuse to do something I’m assigned. I’ll do it for work, but I will never do it for a charity. I’ll volunteer, but if they come and say “you are assigned” this week, I just don’t go.

SilentDawning wrote:

4. Stop talks that focus on church worship [glory talks about how wonderful the church is] rather than worship of God].

Hah! Thank goodness there are others who see the same thing.

SilentDawning wrote:

7. Change home teaching to make it less drugerous and repetitive over your whole life.

I don’t go unless the families specifically ask me to come. I talk to them ahead of time, then see if they “really” want me to come. Usually they don’t really want HT to come.

[Jazernorth]

DarkJedi wrote:

Just over 10 years ago I had what I call a crisis of faith. I found myself in a situation where I was questioning everything I believe about the church, religion in general, and even the existence of God. I was truly shaken to the core. I stopped going to church and have not returned since, although I think I may in the somewhat near future. Over the past couple of years I have partially “rebuilt” my faith, after having gone through pendulum swings from the extremes of God loving us and being intricately involved in our daily lives to God exists and is the creator but that’s all (a diest view). Many other gospel principles and religious beliefs have had similar pendulum swings (prayer, scriptures, etc.). I still lean toward the diest side of things (God does exist and does care about us, but is not involved in our daily lives), prayers are a form of worship but are not usually answered, and so forth. I still struggle with many LDS beliefs and have not reached my own middle ground on some principles yet. I don’t go to church because I have a hard time dealing with people who “know” many things that they really don’t know anything about. I don’t doubt their sincerity and I don’t doubt that they really think they know those things – I also “knew” many things to be true that I now doubt. I believe my thinking has matured to the point where I can ignore, if you will, these ideas just as I would anyone who believes differently than I on any host of subjects.

Part of the problem is that I live in a small ward in the eastern U.S., and while I’m sure the bishop will be accepting, I know I will still be struggling each day inside myself. If and when I do return (and do note that I have considered having my name removed in the past), it will be for sacrament meeting only.

So, all of that said, this place appears to be my kind of place. Other sites one finds while doing Google searches turn out to actually be anti-Mormon. I am not anti-Mormon, and believe in the basic principles of the gospel as taught by the LDS church – I just happen to believe they teach some things as gospel that aren’t gospel. How do all of you who are in my situation deal with going to church?

I finally read your intro and, yes, we have very similar feelings and issues. I almost stopped going to Sacrament meeting about a year ago because of my conflicts with the feelings in my intro. I forced myself to go because of my child and only because of her. I do not get dressed up, I go in my levi pants and carhartt shirt (button down, but definitely work shirt). I even sometimes forget to take off my hat and sun glasses until I walk into the building, whatever I say. Interestingly enough, people leave me alone. I get one every now and again who ask who I am and such, I’m cordial and talk to them, but then they realize I’m not there for them and they leave. I do “occasionally” have the missionaries stop and talk to me, but that is only when they are new and my wife is not with me. If my wife is with me, I have never ever been approached by the missionaries. There were two occasions where the missionaries then the EQP asked if we would help the missionaries “practice” their lessons, I said no. Not, nah, or hemmed hawed about it. Just “no”. That is it. Not one person has said anything about my attire, my lack of attendance, nothing. I live in the “mission field” (I hate that term, ergh how else do you say you’re not from the normal mormon states) and really no one has bothered me about just Sacrament meeting. When I lived in Utah, I was approached my one moron, but my brother, bless his heart, berated the guy. Thinking about this, I do have a great family! Anyway, this long post was just to let you know that I do attend, dressed casual, sit in the back, arrive early enough to get that back seat, and leave right after the last prayer is said. Gone. Like the wind. Out the door so fast that sometimes I forget to say bye to my wife.

There is my scenario, maybe it will help, maybe it won’t.

[Jazernorth]

We had counselors proclaimed religious (LDS and not LDS) and not proclaimed religious (meaning they didn’t push religion into their sessions). We loved the non-religious sessions much better. Now when we see a counselor and they even mention pray or god or religion, we leave. I already know about the praying and religious part of getting help, I didn’t need it from a counselor too.

My suggestion, find a great counselor that isn’t about religion and they will most likely help you with your goals (whatever they are). When I say goals, I mean your goals. Not the church, not the bishop, not your parents but yours and yours alone.

Hope you find some good help, life is meant to be happy.

[Jazernorth]

DarkJedi wrote:

While my plan is to actually leave the building and go home, in my experience there are plenty of skippers in the foyers or sitting in cars in the parking lot if you feel you must stay.

I used to hang out in my truck, but that was when it took 30 minutes to drive to church and we all went together in the same car. Now I’m about 5 minutes away, so I go home.

[Jazernorth]

Even with my conflicting issues, I still take the Sacrament. I’m not sure why, only I see it as the right thing to do.

[Jazernorth]

I guess I’m still dense.

TBM – True believing Mormon …. still do not understand what that means.

[Jazernorth]

DarkJedi wrote:

That was over 10 years ago, and I haven’t gotten over that yet – but I have learned to cope without relying on those feelings. I still don’t know how to discern spiritual promptings from just plain emotions and I don’t know that I will in this lifetime. The old “if it’s good then it’s OK” advice doesn’t work – I was doing good things and got a bad result.

How do you deal with Sunday School and Priesthood (or RS)? I get very uncomfortable being there because I don’t “feel” the spirit. To me, it is just another class, the same as any school class.

Heber13 wrote:

What are your thoughts on the times when Joseph Smith had feelings and they were wrong? If he was pretty close to God and that happened, surely we would also have that happen to us. How does that make sense to you?

I guess I missed this part in church.

hawkgrrrl wrote:

I have never found feelings and emotion to be very reliable for me. Others have better luck with it. I do tend to be an instinctive decision maker, but I just make connections quickly and come to conclusions – I don’t do it based on feelings. In fact, I often have to remember to ask myself how I feel about something because logic has always been my go to, and it’s not fallible either. What can I say? Raised on Star Trek, I guess. A little bit Kirk and a whole lot Spock.

I understand that. Thanks!

Just reading the comments so far, is making me feel a tidbit better. I find myself listening to a lot of talk radio (yes, I’m a talk junkie), and some of that is the local religious talk radio. There are many times that what they are saying makes a whole lot more sense than things I learned in church. I have always been OK with that because even when I was younger I knew that other people have good answers. My parents listened to Zig Zigglar. Anyone have suggestions on Sunday School and Priesthood? I can barely make it through Sacrament, but that has always been the case since I was still wearing diapers.

I also refuse to teach any class or give talks in church. I have no problem saying no. My problem is that when asked this goes through my head:

Do I believe what I would be teaching?

No. (generally because I don’t know what is in the lessons and I don’t want to be caught off guard).

Should I fake it and teach the class?

No.

Why?

Because my integrity says I do not teach anything I don’t believe.

Once that goes through my head, I say no to any teaching request.

I sat through primary and whatever the class part is called with CTR-4 and played games because I didn’t believe what was being taught and they “really” needed a teacher. So I sat in there and played games the whole time.

The last talk I gave in church was 1.25 minutes long (OK, I don’t know the exact time, but it was short). I got up, introduced myself, talked about guns and computers (subjects I know very well), then sat down. To be fair though, I warned the person who asked me to talk that I won’t talk on a subject I don’t know anything about. They said “learn”. I said – OK, you asked for it. The bishopric member had to fill up 20 minutes of time. I’m not sure if he was mad or not, but they never asked me again.

Don’t get me wrong here, I don’t feel bad or regret saying no to anything. What I wonder and have a hard time with is the through process, then wondering afterwards why do I not believe it and if I don’t believe it why do I keep coming back to church. I know it stems back to the experience with CPS and the feelings, so I that is where I started with this discussion. I also continue because statistically children raised in a good church environment become better adjusted and good adults, so I force myself for my child. I would like to get back to the way I was, before then. Not the blind or just following the feelings person, but the person who mostly liked to attend church…… I think, or at least that makes the most sense to me… I dunno, I’m still on the fence on that one I guess.

Sorry for the ramblings there at the end. Like I said in my first post, I ain’t a word smith.

[Jazernorth]

All – Thank you. So far this has given me something to think about.

It will take me a day or two to answer follow up questions, but since I’m trying to figure this out there will be answers to the questions.

Again, thank you.

[Author]

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