[jeriboy]

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Sam Spade said…1) I hate that belonging to a church I have grown up in and loved for a great deal of my life makes me feel like a bigot now. Both my wife and I think the church is so very wrong in the way it treats homosexuals yet there is nothing I can do about it and I feel powerless to create change within the church. This whole thing makes me feel like a tiny cog in a huge machine, I’m screaming away that something is wrong, that something is causing pain to others around me but the giant machine can’t hear me and doesn’t care anyway.

On this one I will try to walk on rice paper without leaving holes in people’s feelings. I support the right for gays to be true to who they are, to be gay. I also support the right of any person or religious organization to support prop 8. This world was formulated by God in such a way, that if people were lego’s, we would not be able to fit all the pieces together to form an harmonious structure. Humans never have been able to form a society that was equally fair to everyone, it just cannot be done in a telestial environment. In the real world some guys like girls, some like other guys, keeping our emotions and heart rate at a safe level seems like a wise option.” God grant me the serenity to change the things I can, to accept the things I cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference. “( author unknown )

[jeriboy]

spacious maze » 12 Aug 2009, 13:56

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I think Bruce has a very valid point here. If the church is to change at all in the next 10, 20, 50 years, what does that say about a divinely wrought organization? Are the directions or commandments of the Lord, through revelation to the prophet, up for evaluation?

The above caused me to think of something that gives me a lot of peace of mind. No action or inaction of man can frustrate the purposes of God.

[jeriboy]

Kalola » 28 Jul 2009, 22:02

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There are times a topic comes to mind for no particular reason. This is one of those times.

I’ve been wondering why some families would want to be together forever when they can’t get along in this life. Do families really want to be together forever? If they do, what do they envision a forever family to be comprised of? Mom, dad, children? Do people envision those children as infants, toddlers, teens or adults?

Three years ago my 88 year old aunt was dying. She and her husband had had a very rough marriage. She astonished everyone near the end by saying that she could hardly wait to get to the other side and be with her husband. I have thought about this alot and suspect, near the end, we are better able to value whats really important, relationships. I have read a few accounts of people who died, went to the other side and returned to write about it. What I pick up in the back ground of all these books, is no one is bickering about anything on the other side. I beleive it’s a condition of this world only. In fact most of them learned we need to show more love and understanding towards each other in this world.

[jeriboy]

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swimordie said…My question, and this will sound rhetorical but I’m asking sincerely, what are people so afraid of hearing that they don’t even want to listen? Are they afraid to doubt? Afraid of losing their testimony? Is it all so fragile that they can’t hear even the slightest dissent?

I understand the need for some people to see things black/white. Why can’t they deal with the slightest gray, even just to listen?

While reading the above couldn’t help but wonder, what is so important to say to someone that we would want them to hear it when they don’t want to hear it. In my personal life I try hard to not inflict my views onto someone who has no interest in them. I often receive e-mails that are not appropiate for everyone, and try to share only those with people who will really like them. I share books from my library with friends who have left the church, so they can search out those things that will please them. And I loan out other books to people who want to strengthen their testimony. It takes only a little thought to measure a persons interests and to leave them happily within their comfort zone.

[jeriboy]

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Swimordie said…Life is not a marathon of sacrifice and “enduring to the end”, whilst our mansion in heaven is being constructed. We are building the metaphorical “mansion” of mortal life, an interior place in our hearts and minds, where we dwell in peace and harmony, emotional health and interpersonal intimacy, experiential growth and spiritual joy.

Whether there really is a heaven or celestial kingdom or after-life at all, I feel confident that something put us here for a reason, and finding and building that “mansion” in our hearts through personal learning, growth and experience, is that reason.

I like the way you said the above,, I look forward to the thought that for all those who pass through this life with some degree of personal growth, that a mind, the whole person, will not be wasted, that eternity is as real as the present.

[jeriboy]

Rix » 12 Aug 2009, 10:29

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HiJolly wrote:

Wordsleuth23,

…”Doubt not, but be believing”. You choose not to. OK. Your comments are the natural result of this.

I think it might be helpful to point out that most of us here “doubt” some things about the functioning of the church. I don’t think we would be on this forum if we didn’t. I find that each of us have peeled layers off the totally literal, perfect church that we were brought up to believe in. Many here are naturalists, secularists, and even atheists…but continue to believe that the LDS culture may offer some benefits for various reasons.

So I am just saying that (IMHO) any comments regarding the teachings of the church are fair play, and I don’t see the benefit of criticizing another’s take on the possible lack of perfect inspiration/revelation from God regarding the ascribed “commandments.”

But maybe that’s just me….

I have grown accustomed to analizing my feelings while they are happening, and for some strange reason while reading Rix’s thread, I had a very good feeling, but it was because my view was almost the exact opposite of his. That does not seem strange to me that a whisper from the spirit can come about in many ways. When I hear stories of a family who has a son in the mission field and the father talks to his wife about all the things they will do with the money when their son comes home, and when he does the money dries up. I have never been able to convince a non-believer that such stories are common place in the church. This is a church of miracles, but without a testimony it will not be recognized as such. I will be the first to agree that a testimony colors our perception of every aspect of the church, from it’s past to the present. A person with a testimoy watch’s over it like a new born baby, they don’t want that testimony to come to harm. And digging into the past or present can be a rewarding or dangerious exercise. There is a spirit that inhabits every thing we do. Years ago I put on my disco pants to go to church in, there was a degrading feeling about them so I changed. I continue to change, and believe me, I have alot of disco pants that need changing.

[jeriboy]

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jmb275 » 27 Jul 2009, 23:19

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wordsleuth23 wrote:

Valoel wrote:

spacious maze wrote:

Most of us are probably here for that reason. I think it’s culture, not truth, that keeps people hanging on.

I’m not sure that is accurate. The things that keep us hanging on … are the things that keep us wanting to hang on. For me, I really have little attachment to the culture. My wife would be thrilled if I just gave up and left the Church. I am actually still here for the spiritual truths. I found myself still finding a lot of value in the spiritual aspects of the Mormon religious metaphor. I don’t believe in the literal truth of a lot of it now, but I still very much value the “truthiness” of it. I think that is a Hawkgrrrl word.

I politely disagree. I would bet that a great majority of people stick with the religion of their families–especially is those families were devout. I’m sure there are some good studies out there. Whether it is Catholics, Southern Utah Polygamists, Mormons, or any other faith, it is extremely difficult to overcome the indoctrination. Maybe “cultural” is a bit vague or broad, people have a difficult shaking the beliefs they are raised with, religious or political. I earned my degree in Political Philosophy, and numerous studies show that a great majority of people stick with the political party of their parents.

I beleive the purpose of this board is here to support the diverse body of ideas that are held by those who use this site. And since their are no two humans exactly alike, and yet, the very purpose of the restored church is to help us become like, and live the life that God lives. That’s why we are told to receive inspiration from the spirit to confirm anything we are told or learn. And when that fails, as it often does, we are given to live by the trial of our faith. And as we are all, right this minute proving, everyone is at a different place in the trial of their faith. This is why we came here, I am failing on many levels, yet I do pray to God to help me keep my testimony, without it, for me would be darkness, because I have tasted, to some degree, the light. The above discussion, and all the others show we, to some degree have or have not been touched by the light. And so the purpose of life continues, some claiming to have been shown it’s true purpose, others claiming to have no clue. And many of us at times (me) pointing the finger at the other for being where they are, shame on me.

[jeriboy]

jmb275, I am enjoying the back and forth you and wordsleuth 23 are having, and especially the part about meditation. You and wordsleuth 23 said:

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wordsleuth23 wrote:

My ultimate point is that for those of us who believe Joseph made the Church up and wrote the Book of Mormon, and find ourselves basically agnostic, is fighting so hard to fit a square into a circle of value, or is a different mode of belief better?

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jmb275 responded…Now this is a good question. I doubt many on this site will try to convince you to stay LDS. swimordie’s not anymore and he seems to do pretty well. And I’ve met atheists who were spiritual but certainly areligious. Maybe a different mode of belief is better. For me it’s convenient to stay, and I don’t think it’s dishonest (I know some people have an issue with this). I stay because I think spirituality is important for me. I have meditation to be extremely useful. I’m sure it’s all psychological, but I don’t really care. When I say spiritual, I mean that in a metaphorical way. It may or may not be that we actually have a spirit. In either case, many things deemed spiritual affect us psychologically, and even physically. Also, as I’ve said, Mormonism produces great people, and I find that serving among them is a great way for me to enrich my life. I view those in church who say things at which I roll my eyes as sojourners just like me and just like you.

Back in the 70’s I was a disco dancer, and soon had to find a way to over come insomnia. Meditation ended up being the answer. I paid the $150.00 for the classes, was given my mantra, and after graduation a question and answer session was held. One lady asked if meditation was the only method that would bring the inner peace we were receiving from what we had learned. He said that any religion that teaches one to have a close prayerfull relationship with God can get the same results. A few years later I had gone back to church and heard a speaker say something that really clicked with me. He said that after you have said your prayers, remain in your prayerfull position for several minutes, and listen, BINGO, the christian or mormon version of meditation……Old-Timer, just read your post above this one, that was so very good.

[jeriboy]

Thanks HiJolly, I hope anybody will be willing to make comments.

[jeriboy]

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Wordsleuth23 said….Why not build less expensive Temples, and use the money saved to provide clean drinking water to starving kids. It’s similar to the idea of fast offerings, just on a much grander scale. It doesn’t have to be just African kids, people all over the world, and our country, are impoverished and they really have no hope without some form of charity. The Church could do more in this area.

Jesus made the comment, the poor you have with you always. He also showed that even though he was the Son of God with great power, he did not come into the world to change such things. He once told a slave to be a good slave. If Jesus would not right all wrongs, neither can the church. Also we have been told that no matter what happens to us in this life, it will be so wonderful in the next life that the hardships of this one will hardly come to mind. The order of business seems to be, at least for me, get a body, live, enjoy, endure, improve, die, get your reward, live forever. The last one you mentioned, I would be real careful with that one.

[jeriboy]

Thanks Ray your words were uplifting…

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Old-Timer said…I am struck particularly by the last part which talks about the “final pruning”. If you read those verses carefully, it is OBVIOUS that this final pruning is an internal pruning of the Church – casting out the bad fruit that is within it ONLY at the speed that the root is able to bear.

Ray, question? the above reminded me of a question I have been searching for for over 25 years. I think it’s in the D&C about the difficulties that will spread round the world beginning at the Lord’s house. A friend of mine thinks that was fullfilled when the saints were driven from Missouri. If anything has ever been said from higher up I would love to hear it, from anybody, thanks.

[jeriboy]

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Captain curmudgeon said….I expect the church to come to better terms with homosexuality fairly soon. I see two trends here. The first is that it’s easier for gay people to come out, even Mormons. The second is that general authorities are getting slightly younger and at some point they will be in close touch with grandchildren and children who are gay.

One message I keep picking up on these threads is that the evolution of the church is happening not because it was restored by a visitation from God, but the voices seem to mostly be saying, it’s just like any other organazation, it seems to be analyzed purely from the human perspective, and the part about God is lightly brushed over.

My perspective is that this is God’s church, and I feel like a salmon swimming against the swift moving stream of unbelief. Yes I know this is a blog that is for the purpose of helping the inactive (me), and those who have questions about all manner of things. I guess what i’m getting at is I would like a little more pick me up, and I do enjoy all the great things that are being said, I guess i feel the negitives are far out weighing the positives.

The french poet Remy de Gourmont said this ” The terrible thing about the quest for truth is that you might find it.”

I have found, for me, an important piece of truth, I want to add to it. I know, I agreed to come to this world, I don’t know if I agreed to like it. I know we become the product of all that we think and say and desire and do. I like this forum, and I like lots of new thoughts and accepting that we are all at a different place in our heads, and yes I know I often say things that are also downers. So maybe i’ll just shut up and try harder to to ride this bucking bronc of a world, heck, maybe tomorrow I’ll just feel stupid for rambleing on so much.

[jeriboy]

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spacious maze said….I’m not sure about the relationship with homosexuality within the church, I think the church will eventually follow the will of the country.

I suspect the church will follow the will of the country about the same way God intervened in Sodom & Gomorrah, meaning they will leave it to God. I keep wondering if I will live long enough to see missionaries sent only to the Jews, or what will clear parts of the country around the Mississippi, or the three events that will happen around the N.Y. area. So much has happened the last two years it’s exciting to get up each day just to see whats going to happen next. One thing you will see, the church and it’s people are as well prepared as any people on earth to organize to meet emergencies.

[jeriboy]

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Poppyseed said….Oh…and btw I am a girlie kind.

Thank you for making me laugh in a very nice way. I enjoy yours and everyone’s point of view on these threads. They are forcing me to think deeper, grow larger, choose words more carefully, and to like the personalitys that peek through the words, thank you.

[jeriboy]

wordsleuth23 » 04 Aug 2009, 10:37

jmb275 wrote:

@wordsleuth23

Sorry, I’m really confused here. You start out with concepts about free will and evil (even in the title of the post), and then ask a question about the church’s position on the nature of God. Can you clarify a little for me?

The problem of evil and free will tie very much into the nature of God. That’s the entire debate. If God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipresent, then can he stop the evil in this world?

Not having read your forty page paper I can only guess at your belief on the subject. It appears God seems very much interested in keeping evil as an option simply as an outgrowth of choice. The preexistence shows that choice was an option, as does life on this planet. To stop evil in this world would be to except Lucifer’s plan in the preexistence.

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