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by Poppyseed » 30 Jul 2009, 10:07
One of my favorite scripture ideas comes from Jacob where he talks about how the spirit teaches things as “they really are” and as they “really will be”. And I am fairly sure that how things really are is different from what mormon culture ( at any time in history) says it is.
Poppyseed, I am absolutely charmed by the idea of someone quoting mormon scripture in the first sentence, and in the second, suggesting the culture that produced the book you quoted has strayed apart from the very book you quote.
Quote:by swimordie » 27 Jul 2009, 15:31
This one happened to me last night at family dinner. (very tbm, huh?)
Somehow we got on the discussion of Native American agricultural practices in the desert southwest (I know standard family dinner discussion ), and I mentioned that a couple local tribes are athabascan.
Orson Scott Card once made the comment that Lehi found a people already here and that that accounts for the quick buildup of population after they arrived. Would love to read other insights into such people, I have read many theories about the land route. Any BYU papers on the subject?
Old-Timer, I admire your restraint to Spacious Maze opening comments. I followed your example and did like wise. Prehaps restraint is not the right word.
Quote:JMB275 said…Where I think maybe the church runs into trouble is that it has made quite astonishing claims in the past about Gospel perfection, certain authority, revelation, fullness of the Gospel, etc. etc. To be open is, maybe in the minds of leaders, equated to an admission of failure in some regard. Most people don’t have this same problem because we haven’t made such aggrandizing claims about ourselves.
I dunno, I’m trying to understand their reasoning.
The above gives me the impression some people think LDS church leaders are playing a game of mental chess with them. I believe the leaders know who they are and where they are going, and pretty much let most people play a one man chess game with themselves. They are busy stearing this great ship ( the church ) and are not all that aware of every wind (word) that fill the sails and buffets the ship as it sails on it’s journey. I think we can paraphrase Ben Frainklin, the Lord who notices every sparrow that falls from the branch, could hardly fail to notice the progress of his church as it goes forth. This world is a place to gain experience, and we humans will make darn sure everyone gets some.
by Old-Timer » 09 Aug 2009, 15:12 “hawkgrrrl’s orthodox or intellectual types”
??? – Um, just curious how you came to that description and exactly what you mean by it.
That was just two words taken from her quote, certainly nothing negitive was meant.
Quote:Wordsleuth23 said…. I should have clarified what I mean by orthodox. Granted, this only my opinion, but I view an orthodox member as one that believes in the literal truth of the gospel, disregards the contradictions found in the doctrine and the history, and in general accepts and follows the cultural norms of Mormonism. Certainly the definition of orthodox is open to debate and interpretation, but that is my view.
The above is a quote from wordsleuth23, below is my doctored version.
I should have clarified what I mean by orthodox. Granted, this only my opinion, but I view an orthodox member as one that believes in the literal truth of the gospel, …( has a testimony )…disregards the contradictions found in the doctrine and the history,…( trusts this is Gods restored church and lives by faith that God is pleased with the past and present leaders )… and in general accepts and follows the cultural norms of Mormonism…( has hope of receiving a crown of glory ),,, Certainly the definition of orthodox is open to debate and interpretation, but that is my view.
Quote:Hawkgrrrl said….Only in the sense that some people “need” to be orthodox members. And some “need” to be intellectual members, and some “need” to be free spirited, and some “need” to fulfill their personal dreams. If the church does not have structure or traditions, those folks will create it where it doesn’t exist.
The earth being a globe, it’s people, points on the compass, the variety will get us just what we have had since 1820. Everyone trying to fit into a church that has the express purpose of helping to shape us into exalted beings. I don’t know if any of hawkgrrrl’s orthodox or intellectual types have a better shot at the prize than another, it was beginning to look at the end of her paragraph that she might take a stab at a guess-ta-mation, but I suspect there is room for some real hope, prehaps even for all points of the compass.
Elder Holland said…. Quote:I think you’d be as aware as I am that that we have many people who are members of the church who do not have some burning conviction as to its origins, who have some other feeling about it that is not as committed to foundational statements and the premises of Mormonism. But we’re not going to invite somebody out of the church over that any more than we would anything else about degrees of belief or steps of hope or steps of conviction.
A friend of mine goes to church just to keep his marriage and family together. He has no testimony, no feeling of certainty about God or any scripture. And knowing the way he was raised he is being true to the spirit of uncertainty that was around in his childhood. I believe his sincere acknowledgment that he does not know if the LDS church is true is as pleaseing to God for it’s honesty as anyone with a testimony. It’s an interesting journey learning to understand oneself and being able to see some of yourself by looking at others. I have a testimony of the restoration but struggle with being inactive and the motivation to do better. I have no clue how much mercy God is allowed to cut us before justice must be meeted out. I would prefer not to test that one too far. I wonder about my friend who attends church just to keep his family together, does his childhood, the way he was raised, make it OK to not get past his upbringing and be able to be touched by the still small voice? so many questions.Old-Timer » 05 Aug 2009, 06:35 Quote:“All things” would include the Church, would it not? It also would include within each individual member.
Perhaps the lack of struggle we crave so much isn’t a good thing in the long run – or even possible. Perhaps learning to be at peace with extrenal AND internal opposition is one of the great liberators of the Gospel (“Good News”) – the idea that the inherent turmoil that “must needs be” is unavoidable and reconciled (“atoned for”) already in the eternal scheme of things.
The above made me wonder if I have gotten to good at keeping problem people out of my life. For forty of my sixty five years I have lived a tranquil life, compared to many friends who keep letting others in that cause a whole lot of excitetment. I suspect my hair turned grey early watching my friends go from one problem to another, and most of those problems were other people. I had read that the family of Pres. Benson used to vote on wheather or not a new friend of a member of the family would be allowed into the inner circle of friendship. To me that would be a wise princple, it’s easier to fool one family member, but much harder to fool a group. Prehaps my growth level would increase if I let a little more excitement into my life.
Just me said….I have this strong desire to heal others, but wonder if the true healing must occur within them through these 4 principles. IOW, someone must be receptive to be healed. I wonder how I can help people on this path so they can heal. What are your thoughts on the gift of healing and how we can access it?
My brother uses his gifts for healing by using Gods gift of Herbs. Esiak is one of his favorites. I believe for some spiritual growth comes better if they keep a healthy body. But I also have reason to believe that some are spiritually blessed by the physical trials they must pass through.
Quote:Swimordie said…In seriousness, I love the idea of service to God in the context that it truly is service to fellow-humans. Christ as intercessary seems symbolic.
Not sure what role obedience plays in this?
The life of Jesus was the perfect example of obedience to his Father. I for one have a tough time practicing obedience, and I mean the kind of obedience I believe would be the right path for me.
Orson that was a great piece. I will go back and read it many more times just for the nourishment (physical & spiritual). Don’t know if I’m right on this so some feed back would help, you said, I believe that spiritual truths cannot be proven or disproved by any physical means. On the other hand physical truths cannot be confirmed or refuted by spiritual means. We obtain spiritual truths by spiritual means, and physical truths by physical means.
A high councilman once said in a talk, that he worked at a place that payed such poor wages that if he did not pay his tithing he could not afford to work there. He said that by paying tithing all of his physical assets lasted so much longer, and as he enjoyed working where he did he was able to enjoy his poverty so much better.
I personally suspect that a more perfect blending of the spiritual and physical can be acheived on a personal level, even though it may not be possible to convey it to someone else by word of mouth. The comment in the BofM ” our life passed by as in a dream ” makes me think of such an instance as well as Joseph Smiths ” wheather we were in the body or out of the body I could not tell. Neither can I tell if any of this will add up to any thing that will make sense to you, but I loved what you wrote.
Jesus said, None cometh unto the Father but by me. He allowed that there were other paths and other teachers with other destinies. But the highest place is reserved for those who will live with him and his Father. I beleive the leaders of the LDS church were given the keys to help us get there.
Quote:Gabe P. said….For us struggling members of the Church, I think Dew’s work gives rise to another interesting take. Many of us are concerned about the Church’s unwillingness to confront its history squarely, both in its presentation to the outside world and its treatment in Church meetings.
I could’nt help but think how unreasonable it is to expect any organization, church or other wise, to blab about all perceived misdeeds.
I mean how long did it take the catholic church to admit to holding poor old Galileo’s toe’s to the fire. Most organizations spend time any money trying to improve their image. Don’t you think it’s a little unrealistic to expect a church to set up a department just to seek out all the negitive stuff they can find and publish it to the world.
I suspect the leadership has a lot to keep track of just in the present and near future. It’s also possible the past is the rocks over which we break our selves, or tip toe over carefully enough to not lose our balance.
Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, [Jesus] answered then, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!,’ for the kingdom of God is within you.” For the kingdom of God is within you, thank you Just Me for that quote.
There are as many ways to strengthen a testimony as there are to distroy one. The more I read on both sides of the issue’s on these threads, the more I am grateful for the slender gleam of light that still lights my mind. I am inactive but still pray to God to help me hold onto the light until I seek the path towards more light. The mystery of how and who will win the top prize in the next world, will i guess, remain a mystery. The path from preexistence, to earth life, to eternity, for what ever reason, had to be fraught with for most people, with not even knowing there is a plan. And for those who do claim some insight into lifes purpose, confusion on every level, on every issue. And there is no way to change that fact because the confusion is part of the plan. Before God formed the earth He knew the beginning from the end.
I guess we are all responsable for finding a way to make peace with all the confusion. Reading these threads is, up to this point, helping to firm up in my own mind about who I am, where God is concerned. I can look back and work my way to the present and see some reason to hope. Without that thin thread of light, for me, hope would vanish. So no matter what happens in the world and all around me, holding onto the light is where it’s at for me.
Thanks to all of you for being at a different place in your life, and for letting me read about your certainties and un-certainties on all these issues.
