[Johari]

Sheldon (a funny show)

Thanks for coming aboard a ship with a very diverse group and a wide variety of perspectives.

I’m also new here and enjoy the many stories and responses. I hear warm advice to encourage a toe in the church and a foot out and vice versa. I see people at the door step of a faith crisis, those almost drowning and others sipping on a Slurpee on a smooth sea of faith.

Thanks for sharing your background and in particular the edited talk by Ronald Poelman.

You seem to have been sailing these seas for awhile. You also seem very comfortable and adjusted to your cruise ship. As one having a similar background (my great….etc G-father was Frederick G. Williams), I’m curious if you went through a stormy faith crisis (losing all your faith or belief in God) at some point in your life or was it a smooth and a well adjusted transition as it appears, (always retaining some shoring or anchor to your belief system?) I too was a Bishop and admire your ability to lead rather than micro-manage people.

Thanks,

Johari

[Johari]

Church 0333

I’m sorry to hear about your release and know how that hurts deeply when you care so much about carrying the message of love and acceptance of others, especially for those that are different. I hope you can take comfort to know that it was simply the SP’s personality to make that decision and many other SPs would have not.

I feel that the conviction of your message runs deep within you, and hope that you continue to be the salt for good within the LDS fold. It is discouraging and lonely at times, and hope you can find comfort to know there are many of us that feel the same way. It is a learning experience.

I was “inactive” (no callings and no HT by choice) for several years while finding my new faith. I’ve just recently agreed to take a HT assignment. How we bounce back, stay and overcome many of the issues is part of finding our new faith. However, I’m encouraged by the messages by a few GAs talks that some are trying to move the church in the right direction and especially change the attitudes of members. At the same time, I’m discouraged by the rigid inflexible conference or manual messages when they invoke that God does not look at sin with the least degree of allowance and saddle their horse on that statement alone.

Since my return to the HP group meetings, I’m slowly learning that there are many others “the salt” that feel and think the way we do and are also trying to express (tactfully) the same message.

Just yesterday in our HP meeting, out of 10 or 11 HP in attendance, 4 of us spoke up and expressed our thoughts and feelings that caused a silent stir or division of opinion among the group members. I had no idea that others felt so deeply the same way I did. The subject and lesson was from Elder Uchtdorf April Priesthood 2013 talk on “Four Titles.”

To share as to what took place in the HP lesson, I simply expressed that I had been guilty in the past because of my upbringing in the church and because of the structure of the church to see people as active or inactive, member or non-member, priesthood holder or prospective priesthood holder, endowed or not endowed, has a calling or doesn’t have a calling, or this person is having trouble with the word of wisdom and even as far as to call or label one an apostate for having differing views.

I must have hit a nerve, because three others and especially one brother was almost brought to tears as he expressed as a youth that he wanted to leave the church because of the labels that were put on him. We spoke privately after the meeting and he expressed that he has stayed because, although it is very slow, he is encouraged by the direction the church is going.

I simple stated in ending my remarks during the lesson, that I think Elder Uchtdorf message is that we need to learn to live within the church structure as an organization but not to become the structure in our relationships with others.

I went home feeling comforted finding others within the HP group for the first time that felt the same way. And what set the stage to allow us to expresses our feelings were the following remarks-words from Elder Uchtdorf that were read during the lesson.

I hope you can take comfort as I share a few of the words read in our HP lesson. (I’ve added a few of my comments how I and others interpret Elder Uchtdorf words)

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God. (That we no longer make others feel like strangers and foreigners regardless of their circumstances or who they are – we are not the church structure – we are all brothers and sisters – regardless of membership or views.)

Elder Uchtdorf words continued: “Unfortunately, none of us quite lives up to everything that this title implies, “for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” (Let the first one without sin cast the first stone).

“We have all seen a toddler learn to walk. He takes a small step and totters. He falls. Do we scold such an attempt? Of course not. What father would punish a toddler for stumbling? We encourage, we applaud, and we praise because with every small step, the child is becoming more like his parents.

Now, brethren, compared to the perfection of God, we mortals are scarcely more than awkward, faltering toddlers.” (Whether one accepts baptism or not, or may accept baptism but is not yet ready for their next “toddler step” we need not be the judge where someone needs to be in their progression in life.)

“Remember that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is built not for men and women who are perfect or unaffected by mortal temptations…” (Unfortunately, those affected by mortal temptations are made to feel like strangers and foreigners.)

“This is the place for you to be. I hope you can feel the brotherhood that unites us, and I pray that here, among your brothers; you will find belonging, support, and friendship.” (Unfortunately, this is not the case in the church today – this is why we have men like Elder Uchtdorf delivering the message (tactfully) to the rigid judgmental members and leadership.)

(The last words I’ll share from the HP lesson is, in my opinion, a direct effort to move people in the church the right direction. If we get hung up on trying to change the basic church structure – we may be barking up the wrong tree – however, I believe it is possible to let the church be the church and people need to become people, i.e., Christ like).

“But while the Atonement is meant to help us all become more like Christ, it is not meant to make us all the same. Sometimes we confuse differences in personality with sin. We can even make the mistake of thinking that because someone is different from us, it must mean they are not pleasing to God. This line of thinking leads some to believe that the Church wants to create every member from a single mold—that each one should look, feel, think, and behave like every other. This would contradict the genius of God, who created every man different from his brother, every son different from his father.”

“It also contradicts the intent and purpose of the Church of Jesus Christ, which acknowledges and protects the moral agency—with all its far-reaching consequences—of each and every one of God’s children.”

“The Church thrives when we take advantage of this diversity and encourage each other to develop and use our talents to lift and strengthen our fellow disciples.”

“The restored gospel of Jesus Christ blesses lives not just when we believe it—but much more when we live it. It is in the application of gospel principles that individuals are uplifted and families are strengthened. It is our privilege and responsibility not just to talk the talk but also to walk the walk.”

One last comment when trying to share the message to others. I learned that we have to be a light on a hill, but it needs to be a candle light rather than a bright spot light. If our words become a spot light into another’s eyes, it only blinds them more.. The constant example and soft spoken kind words will help to influence others and be that salt that is needed throughout the world and within our circle of influence.

My best to you brother, our message is eternal – it’s daily, it has no end we all continue to evolve.

I’ve already learned – that grass isn’t any greener on the other hill – but each has to come to that knowledge on their own.

Hang in there.

Johari

[Johari]

Roy & Ray

Thanks for your comments on the mission of StayLDS. Your explanations make senses and I agree. I guess if the forum had a mission to change everything we disagreed with in the church, we would be all over the map. I think there are plenty of boots on the ground taking care of that cause. This support forum is already reminding me to put on my hospital slippers rather than the battle boots each morning and especially on Sunday.

Thanks again – I’m learning with new eyes and ears. It is refreshing and the fruit is delightful when such good wisdom is served here. Great place to get a reality check.

Johari

[Johari]

Church 333

Thanks for your thoughts. I know what you are experiencing – – hang in there – I came to the conclusion its worth fighting for your heritage and as Ray D. would say – help in the pruning process.

Ray D – makes a good point that the fight is probably with the overzealous rather than the faithful. We then have to be careful how we set an example, tread carefully and not become overzealous ourselves. We’ll kill’m with kindness.

I really know what you are up against serving on the high council. Use wisdom as you set an example and be wise in what you say over the pulpit you your talk assignments. Use humor, personal stories and keep a smile when you give your HC talk – – it helps in teaching the message of love and acceptance of others – but don’t focus too much on it – it will make them nervous. Its better to be in the trenches and HC where you can be an influence rather than get yourself released. We need the salt everywhere.

I did not reveal everything in my introductions. So to help relate with you, I’ve served in Bishoprics 3x, HC’s 3x, Bishop, singles ward, military wards (prior Army reserve military chaplain 4 yrs), – – and you can be a great influences if approached in the right way.

Best to you –

Johari

DA –

Thanks for your insight. I agree with you and Ray D. regarding overzealousness being a bigger concern. I know the change in allowing more flexibility and its interconnection to doctrine- -it’s a tricky one. However, we have a history of making changes that contradict previous doctrine – – but they way they do it is present the new policy, practice or doctrine and then they really don’t bring up the old doctrine or policy anymore if possible. When asked – they respond, “Let’s not dwell on the pass – let’s look forward.” I believe they know how to walk that fine line very well. It’s just a matter of when – – whether it is done slowly and subtly or an outright public announcement that temple, priesthood, etc will become a choice rather than a requirement. For now – – it’s good to hear many are patiently and wisely helping the cause.

Thanks,

Johari

Ray D –

Thanks for your clarification on the pruning. That does makes good sense now.

I can tell you’ve been doing this for awhile. Good insight and comments.

I can also see how there is a very fine line in these support forum’s on how one expresses frustration without sounding anti. However, I think there is a difference between constructive complaints to make a positive point in the end versus simply anti. I’m sure you recognize the difference.

Thanks again for your comments.

Johari

[Johari]

Hi Cwald – I sense your passion

Ray will have to be our “Ray of Hope” (I’m sure you’ve heard that before).

Great to see that you have hung around this site for so long –

Johari

[Johari]

Ray,

I truly hope you are right.

In some cases I do see more compassionate and understanding leaders when you get to a one on one private meeting. But at the same time, you get these same leaders in a public setting just as stern as I have every seen when they lead to enforce the text book model duties and structure. I have children and family with social disabilities and moderate autism which become victims of the stern pruning process to weed out those that don’t fit the model. (I understand it is unintentional – just what happens).

The one thing I cannot figure out in the pruning process – which kind of people will finally end up remaining. Those who would sit at the table of a sinner or those who would cast a stone at a sinner. I’m not sure who is winning at this point. I will give it some more time and hope I’m encouraged by the tides of change. I can tell you have a great commitment to the process and impressed with your patience. That does shine a light on how far one could go with their patience – – perhaps a lesson to be learned. – thanks for this forum and your example.

Johari

[Johari]

Hi Ray,

Thanks for your comments. I do agree that social evolution is a natural process. I appreciate what you and others are doing for the cause. However, although we might feel at times we are trying to move a mountain using our own kitchen spoons, I can’t help seem to get rid of this childish or child-like hope that someone out there will connect with the powers that can influence the key change we are looking for to accept those that are not ready for every practice in the church.

Then again, I remember learning about how long it took to change our stance on blacks and the priesthood. If I remember right, although there were many events and people who paved the way, it rested heavily on Spencer W Kimball’s mind where (at least it seem from the outside looking in) it took mainly one person to see it through. Perhaps it was more complex.

We are putting our shoulder to the wheel for a good cause – – but it’s now time to put air in the tires.

thanks for being one of those paving the way – – never under estimate the power and influence of one.

Johari

[Johari]

Hi MacKay11

Your feedback is encouraging to know that beyond support, many others are patiently waiting for the ocean liner to turn. I think many others sense the coming change – – but it is very slow. I think seeing some change little by little is the knot at the end of the rope that keeps us hanging around. I look forward to the day I can bring back many of my family, relatives and friends that left because they would be made to feel out of place.

And you are correct – – we are not seeing the excommunication that we have seen. In part I think, they can see these individuals are not anti-Mormon, but are sincere and kind individuals truly concern for accuracy and living our religion in a healthy way – – if that makes sense. Joanna Brooks is another blog from San Diego that would have been excommunicated 20 years ago. She is forthright, insightful, sincere and accurate and shares the feelings of a lot of disenfranchised LDS members.

Hope we both can see that day before we see our grave. My time is running short myself.

Johari

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