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  • in reply to: Kirtland Temple trivia #140598
    John Hamer
    Participant

    Yes, they did washing, anointing, and feet-washing in Kirtland. But this wasn’t called “endowment.” The “endowment” in Kirtland was closer to what the word actually means, i.e., “gift.” The endowment that members were promised and which they received in Kirtland was a powerful outpouring of the Spirit, which is how the members reported their feelings during the dedication ceremonies.

    in reply to: i might actually fit in with the CoC! #138096
    John Hamer
    Participant

    Nice discussion, sorry I missed it. :)

    Fortunately or unfortunately, every Community of Christ congregation is going to be its own thing, so you can never tell what you’ll get if you show up. My congregation in Toronto puts on a pretty good, traditional Latter Day Saint service each week — so, it’s probably better prepared than what Tom appears to have encountered in Mesa. I personally think it’s no where near as boring as the LDS services I’ve attended as an adult, but I’m sure it can’t compare one iota in terms of being fun and lively to a Unitarian Universalist service.

    Given that they are all different, I’ll descibe my own congregation in downtown Toronto.

    Our first hour is Sunday School. I’ve started teaching adult Sunday School (eq. of “Gospel Doctrine”) once a month. My first lesson is here: http://saintsherald.com/2011/02/02/church-history-sunday-month-1/

    Then there’s the main worship meeting, which is a communion or sacrament meeting 1x per month. The main differences from an LDS meeting are: (1) a little shorter, (2) livelier tempo to hymns, (3) one longer talk instead of three, (4) there’s a lighting of a peace candle and a prayer for peace for a country or indigenous people in the world, and (5) there’s a offering and collection (but no tithing settlement at the end of the year).

    On the communion Sunday, the prayers are the same except women can be offering them (since women have full priesthood participation) and we retain the original “wine” instead of the substituted word “water” in the second prayer. The wine is unfermented grape juice.

    Immediately after the worship meeting, everyone adjourns to the social room for snacks, coffee & tea, and visiting, which lasts about 20 minutes, meaning the whole thing is about 2 hours and 20 minutes, although a lot of people skip the Sunday School hour.

    In our congregation, the Book of Mormon is not discarded and usually is drawn from or mentioned every week, but this is not necessarily usual.

    in reply to: Historic Mormon Conundrums – one sentence thoughts. #116915
    John Hamer
    Participant

    Blacks — The whole point of the gospel is inclusion of everyone, so the only reason leaders denied priesthood ordination to people on the basis of race was their own bigotry; prejudice is a rejection of the 2nd great commandment of the gospel (“love your neighbor”) and that hardness of heart cuts church members and leaders off from the spirit of inspiration and revelation.

    Polygamy — An unfortunate practice introduced by Joseph Smith that Brigham Young successfully exploited as a means of tying followers to him by sharing in something that was criminal activity, and which then became intimately interwoven with their family lives.

    The means of translating the BOM — Inspired story-telling, primarily a collaboration between Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, which probably only rarely involved physical avatars such as seer-stones, hats, and the “plates” object.

    The 3 witnesses — Faithful Mormons, already converted to Joseph Smith, who saw a vision in their minds, the same way you or I see visions or dreams when we close our eyes and conjure images.

    The 8 witnesses — Other members of the Smith and Whitmer families who signed a common document stating that they had seen the “plates” object (under a cloth), hefted the plates object (nailed within a box), and seen the curious “Caracters” said to be transcribed from the plates in the form of a transcript — either the transcript owned by the Community of Christ, or one like it.

    The Pearl of Great Price (that’s a BIG one) — A book created by the LDS Church in the late 19th Century, containing the Joseph Smith History (a later and less accurate account of the first vision), the “Book of Moses” (part of Joseph’s inventive gloss/alteration of the Bible), and the Book of Abraham (Joseph’s inventive creation after acquiring the Chandler Mummies and papyri).

    Brigham Young — One of the most ambitious and successful Mormons ever, his personality is best understood as a usurper who unsuccessfully tried to leave his own family dynasty in charge of the LDS Church; despite his reputation, he was not a great organizer, but he was successful because he was willing to break any number of eggs to make an omelet.

    The Blood Doctrine — Although Mormons believed they were special blood descendants of Israel (primarily through Ephraim), this is not literally true; nor is imagining that people need to shed blood to atone for sins helpful in any way.

    DNA evidence not aligned with BOM — Scripture is not history and history is not scripture: The Book of Mormon, like the Book of Job, and the Book of Genesis, among others, is not related in any way to actual historical events.

    re-baptism — This was a ceremony that Mormons used to do; there’s nothing wrong with it and I don’t see why it couldn’t be reinstituted.

    Homosexuals — Homosexuality is as eternal and Godly as heterosexuality and gender; the only true sin associated with homosexuality is bigotry against homosexuals.

    Masonry similarities to the Temple — The Nauvoo endowment (and the current LDS redaction of the same) were directly derived from Masonry.

    The fact that prophets no longer testify of actually talking/seeing/speaking with God — Worshiping leaders the way most Mormons do violates the gospel’s first great commandment (“love God” / have no gods before me). Leaders do not and have never talked to God in a way that is different from the way you or I can today.

    Adam-God Theory — This was theological speculation, the same way that the King Follett Discourse and the Trinity are theological speculation. God is not like your dad or your brother or a dove or a ghost or Adam — these are all just models that people use to imagine God, since people can’t picture infinity.

    Mountain Meadows — This is a stark, but not isolated, example of what happens when you surrender your culture to theo-dictatorship. It is systems of checks and balances on human authority that are divinely ordained, not dictatorships.

    Secret Tunnels — There’s nothing wrong with tunnels.

    Danites — Created with the sanction of Joseph Smith to drive free-thinking Mormons like Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer out of Far West, Missouri; precisely paralleling the way the Missourians later drove the Mormons out of their state.

    Lafferty Brothers — There are crazy people like the Lafferty brothers in all cultures.

    White Salamander — A clever forgery which highlights the fact that LDS leaders are fallible and possess no insights more special than yours or mine.

    The Sword of Laban — An image from the mind of Joseph Smith, possibly (speculatively) derived from the leg surgery he had as a boy.

    Mummies/Parchment — The source of the inspiration that became the Book of Abraham, the Chandler mummies and papyri had nothing to do with Abraham, who is largely a mythical figure.

    Zelf — Early Mormons saw the world around them as scriptural and were inspired to see evidence of scripture all around them; none of these ideas nor the scriptures themselves should be taken literally today.

    Cain — a literary creation of the Yahwist / J-Source, originally having nothing to do with skin color, which in modern times was used by Americans (including Mormons) to justify African slavery and racism.

    Three Nephites — Fun folklore like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

    John the Beloved — Traditionally one of Jesus’s core disciples; New Testament books ascribed to him were not written by him. Both the Gospel and the Apocalypse of John (Revelation) are late pseudepigrapha that tell us almost nothing about the historical Jesus.

    Jackson County — Zion, in a symbolic sense. I’m here right now.

    Destruction of The Nauvoo Expositor — A clear example of how power currupts all humans, which is why God does not ordain unchecked authority (theo-dictatorship), but instead supports as system of checks and balances where all the members receive personal revelation (true theo-democracy).

    Kirtland Financial Crisis — Joseph Smith didn’t understand banking or business of any kind, and his business ventures routinely failed; the mistake was his, but his greatest personal flaw was incapacity to take responsibility for his actions.

    Spiritual Eyes vs. Actual Vision — No one has ever seen science-fiction-like apparitions; all visions are seen with spiritual eyes. If we imagine that people in the past saw things we don’t see now, we are cutting ourselves off from our own spiritual existence.

    Different Accounts of the First Vision — The first account is the best; as with all visions, this was a visionary experience, not a visitation. Many people have had similar, moving, theophanies, and you can too.

    The “real” origin of The Word of Wisdom — The Word of Wisdom is simple 19th-century health folklore.

    Quakers on the Moon — Brigham Young’s speculation is based on the old philosophical idea that there are no vacuums, and so all earth-like spheres would be filled with people.

    The lost 116 pages — The lost earlier version of the Book of Mormon up to the Book of Mosiah; the official explanation helps illustrate that the Book of Mormon was a creative composition (that could not be duplicated), rather than a literal translation (which could be duplicated).

    Solomon Spaulding — One of many, many authors in the 18th and 19th century who believed that a high civilization (cf. the “Mound-Builder” myth) had once existed in North America that had Old World origins; despite the beliefs of many to the contrary, the Book of Mormon is not based on any of Spaulding’s works.

    Philastus Hurlbut — The cousin of my great great great great grandfather; without the affidavits he collected, we wouldn’t know nearly as much about Joseph Smith’s early life.

    in reply to: Wondering about the Long-Term #115611
    John Hamer
    Participant

    Hi GD Teacher — love seeing you all around the web. Where do you live? We should get together IRL sometime we’re ever in the same locale.

    I think you have a great perspective on the Mormon experience and I’ve long been an advocate of having secular Mormons the same way a person can be a secular Jew.

    I think the problem for cultural or secular Mormonism is the authoritarian structure of the LDS Church itself. The church welcomes neither dissent nor free-thinking; it’s a top-down organization that values obedience to leaders and conformity to practices above all. Therefore, while I advocate staying Mormon, I don’t favor staying LDS.

    in reply to: Where is John Hamer these days? #117073
    John Hamer
    Participant

    Valoel wrote:

    Sorry about spelling your name wrong. I like your NOM avatar. That is why it stuck in my mind.


    That’s no problem. That happens all the time and I don’t really care at all, but it does make a difference on Google searches. Great seeing you too. I like your posts on MormonMatters.

    in reply to: Where is John Hamer these days? #117071
    John Hamer
    Participant

    On the topic of plural marriage, I think we can separate facts from beliefs without too much trouble. This was my proposed language:

    PLURAL MARRIAGE (POLYGAMY)

    Neither the LDS Church nor the Community of Christ currently sanction polygamous marriages. Among converts from cultures that practice polygamy, the Community of Christ recognizes existing polygamous marriages, provided that converts take no additional wives. By contrast, the LDS Church will not baptize persons actively practicing polygamy. In the early church, Joseph Smith Jr. consistently denounced polygamy in his public discourses, but historians have concluded that he introduced the practice privately among a core group of his followers in Nauvoo, Illinois.

    The Community of Christ was re-organized by opponents of the practice of polygamy, including Emma Smith, the legal wife of Joseph Smith Jr. and her son Joseph Smith III. Emma continued her husband’s policy of denying polygamy publicly. Joseph Smith III maintained that so long as the evidence was not 100% conclusive, it was possible to believe that his father was not involved. For many years, Community of Christ members believed that Brigham Young had originated polygamy as an article of faith, but the church’s historians began to correct this view in the 1970s and 1980s. Members today are encouraged to judge the historical sources for themselves. A prevalent view is that Joseph Smith Jr. introduced polygamy but realized it was a mistake in the last months of his life. This view is supported by testimony of early members, including William Marks, and modern analysis which shows that Joseph Jr. took no new wives in the last months of his life.

    Leaders of the LDS Church in the late 1840s included proponents of the practice of polygamy in Nauvoo. After the death of Joseph Jr. in 1844, Brigham Young significantly broadened the practice to include a large proportion of the city’s adult population. From 1853–1890, the LDS Church publicly pronounced plural marriage as a doctrine essential to achieving the highest degree of exaltation in the afterlife. The LDS Church ceased to publicly sanction polygamy in 1890, it ceased to sanction private practice after 1904, and it began to excommunicate all persons engaging in new polygamous marriages in the 1920s. The LDS Church continues to believe plural marriages will exist in the afterlife. Among members, a widower can be “sealed” to a new wife, suggesting that he will be together with multiple wives in eternity.

    in reply to: Where is John Hamer these days? #117068
    John Hamer
    Participant

    Valoel wrote:

    I want to say he pops in at New Order Mormon now and then. I forget the name he uses. I may be connecting the dots wrong, but I think the avatar is him standing in a room, with long hair, holding open a book of mormon in one hand, and with a glass of red wine in the other hand. Like I said, I might have that NOM-person mixed up with John Hammer in my head.

    It’s a triple combination. Actually I was preaching out of the Book of Abraham in that picture. Just one “m” in Hamer.

    in reply to: Where is John Hamer these days? #117067
    John Hamer
    Participant

    Hey Tom,

    I saw your messages on BCC, Facebook, and now here. What’s up?

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