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Roy wrote:ihhi wrote:
The more someone has to look outside of the church for answers to church questions, the less they will trust the church.
I remember all sorts of mysteries from the mission days. Is there a holy of holies in the temple? Do the Q15 wash each other’s feet? What about dusting our feet for people that don’t listen to the gospel message? Is the arm positioning we make in the baptism ceremony (both to perform the baptism and to receive baptism) related to any of the arm gestures in the temple? ….
I think the main issue is that most of the wacky things that were rumored on our missions, etc were always assumed to be wacky rumors…it is not a good thing to find out that wacky thing is actually true…
There is a burden placed on a church that claims to be Gods one and only…..most people assume that “God can not lie” and that God is “the same yesterday , today and tomorrow”. So when things like this were there and then aren’t then are brought back and not documented, seem to be given out based on some strange system available to a select few….well…that means od is a “Respecter of persons”. Of course this leads to forums like this for the people who have had their worlds rocked and are trying to pick up and keep going…
Roy wrote:4) To expand on reason number 3, I feel some sadness that women who are about to deliver are no longer blessed and administered to by members of the relief society. I believe that legalistic misunderstandings were to blame for this. I am therefore reluctant to decry other ordinances for similar legalistic mis-applications.
What the cr@p? Women used to bless moms ready to deliver? Ok…I want some details.
….
Roy wrote:P.S. If anyone on the Second Anointing selection committee is reading this, Can you send invites via PM? J/K
😆 Me Too! (reflections of the AIM days)
mackay11 wrote:There are many hints of the church trying to modernise (see their newsroom response on ‘getting a planet’). ….”
Dude…you can’t say stuff like that and not post a link for us to follow…….slacker…
Ann wrote:I was just getting to the point in my thinking where I thought I’d be able to leave the past in the past. Then I found out about this. I can hardly believe it’s happening now. And I find the blurb at FAIR patronizing.
I didn’t mean to upset anyone…I just sort of want to know what it is the real doctrine….I do think that secrets don’t play well.
SamBee wrote:Before anyone
whips outany more comparisons, may I just add, that I have never looked at anyone else’s line of authority… it was remarked to me when I got given it, and yes, I’d heard of quite a few people on it!!! :think: Nice….BTW…nice picture of Cain on your profile
😈 Great news for you! I am similar to you in that I am trying to determine Gods interaction and role. I can’t deny I have felt inspired….I also agree that people who find a profound belief in God and his mercy seem to be more like I would like to be than those who hang fercociously on to religious tenants (be they atheistic principals, environmental, or rabid LDS). I can’t help but feel a divine presence …and I usually feel it more on a cool clear sunny morning when most of the world is asleep than I do ANYWHERE else. I congratulate you. I feel we are walking the same path….and I like where it is going…the going is tough and kind of lonely but it feels like…progress
ihhi wrote:I have been lurking the forum for a month or so and thought it was time to introduce myself.
After a year after our move I still had not secured sufficient work, despite lots of resumes, fasting, prayers. I began to question the intricacies of how the spirit works and the validity of expecting God to bless my life. My thoughts were as follows. If 2 people are praying to get a job, how does God decide who gets the job and why wasn’t I that person? After all I was part of his favorite church. Basically I started to question the idea of God intervening in our lives. If he does that complicates things. Questions like how does he choose to cure a 50 year old man of brain cancer while letting a young mother of 2 die doesn’t add up and answers like “We can’t understand the way God works” seem shallow and meaningless.
…
Welcome from another newbie. I am Jealous of you having a wife in the same place as you. My wife is a true believer and doesn’t like change much. Took her a decade of marriage to get the nerve to eat broccoli (There were two coooked vegetables where she grew up…canned corn and canned beans…well and occasional corn on the cob). To be honest I wouldn’t want to take it away from her …i am mostly jealous…but it would be nice to be in the same place with someone. Have a good friend in the ward I can chat with about stuff like this though so i get by.
I identified with your statement about Gods direct involvement in our lives. I have come to believe in inspiration and spiritual encouragement in regards to some worldly things (more like….yeah…you can do that and survive) generally when we seek him out….but I think that unless there is a special reason (not sure what would qualify here)….that he mostly lets things go..free agency right? If God was helping out some of us and not others then it wouldn’t really be fair right? Football games would last forever waiting for one side to get substantially more prayers than the other…
Why do bad things happen to good people? Because we all get to make choices and we live with those choices….and sometimes we get to live with the results of other peoples bad choices…sucks but it comes with the whole free agency thing.
Old-Timer wrote:I have a . . . unique sense of humor. Seriously, I sometimes whisper words to a hymn that make my wife slap me during sacrament meeting – and that’s just the start. …
I know what you mean on this….My wife says i have ruined “The world has need of willing men” for my whole family…
All because i asked them in sacrament meeting one day if they really “do their dootie with a heart full of song”
Ann wrote:Sorry, this crossed in the mail with mackay’s reply, and I guess that’s one way of looking at it, although nothing else we agree to is for the temple only. Again, sorry.
No need to apologize….we are safe here. I don’t think anyone is actually saying they believe that was how it was intended….just how they deal with it.
Why is it in the ceremony….my hopes it will go away like so many other things….
To comment on other aspects of your original post: 1) Prophets. I used to think they were infallible and that they spoke to God as “a man speaketh to a friend” ….meaning personally in Gods presence…”Dude keep your voice down” kind of real conversations. I am older now and the evidence is overwhelming that this is not the case. I thank President Hinckley for bringing prophets down to earth. His talks with media helped bring things into perspective (good follow up to the Benson years). The latest church announcements regarding Africans and the priesthood put the cherry on the “Prophets don’t really hang out in two way chats with God sundae”
So what are prophets? I do believe that prophets are comfortable speaking with God “a man speaketh to a friend”….but in the same way we all can. There have even been talks describing how prophets approach inspiration….and it is the same way we all do while acting in our areas of stewardship (Stake Pres for his Stake, Bishop for the ward, mother for her child, father for his own soul).
Prophets administer the church, prophets set directoin under the inspiration and guidance they feel. I now believe that prophets biggest struggles are likely discerning between their own will and that of the lords….just like we all do. I think that is why 12 apostles can speak on the same element of doctrine, and all supporting it yet, 1 (for me usually Uchtdorf) will inspire, 6 or so will make me go “uh huh…no suprises there” and a couple will royally irritate me. Each sees through their own lense and communicates that view….they are learning and growing too. They get to avail themselves of the plan of salvation just like the rest of us….just in their case we all get to go along for the ride…like a lot of Africans got to do for decades….I believe the Lord will not deprive them and will make it work out just like he promised he would do for all who are willing to “bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you”. BTW, remember that when the Lords annointed seem to be calling you unworthy….at one time your grandparents were likely getting the same guilt trip for having relations without their garments on….it is ok now.
We need prophets…usually their skills lie in administrative skills and patience, prophecy comes along as part of the job. Probably why we refer to them as “President” most of the time. They are only rarely prophesying….and are supposed to tell you when they are.
2) Why does the church constantly get involved in political affairs. I think if you read my answer to question 1 it answers this. They are trying to do good within the realm of their understanding….and they might be right…though I don’t think so. I believe we had a spitwad fight or namecalling contest of some type in the pre-exhistance over free agency (still don’t know how big a war a bunch of incorporeal spirits can have….unless we had cool psychic abilities which would totally rock) and that Satan wanted to rule by force…..he got in a lot of trouble for that…so seems a few of us are confused as we strive to enforce our belief system on others by rule of law. Want to change things and you believe the gospel is the answer for happiness? One prophet said he reccomends “teach them good principals and they will govern themselves”
Be patient they, just like you and me, are learning.
3) Guilt being swept away. Many answers to this have been given in people answers to your number 5 question. Guilt, in my opinion, is the adversaries tool. I heard a joke once goes like this:
A age old catholic priest comes screaming out of the Vatican archives waving an old piece of parchment
He is stopped by security as he appears to be out of his mind…eventually they take him to the pope to get answers and the security guards are disimissed to wait outside the office door
Pope: what is it my son….what so disturbs you”
Priest: f-f-f-father…it is horrible…there has been a mistake
Pope: What mistake my son…could it be so terrible?
Priest: We had it wrong…the word they were using in regards to sex was “celibRate!”…not celibate!
Outside the Popes security was startled as they heard the pope screaming
I believe one day we are going to find out the Lord never meant for guilt to debilitate us. I believe he meant us to recognize our weaknesses, then to become humble as we realized how much better we could be, then to rejoice as we found improvement and the joy that follows and probably some sorrow for the joy we missed out on by not improving earlier….this experience then motivating us to find new joys through personal improvement…where we change not because someone else is disappointed in us…God helps us find truth, understand truth, then embrace truth, then implement truth….it is a personal journey that leads to your guilt being swept away….then changed into desire to be better…
I love the lament of Nephi in 2 Nephi 4: 16. I hear Sorrow and celebration….not Guilt
16 Behold, my asoul delighteth in the things of the Lord; and my bheart pondereth continually upon the things which I have seen and heard.17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.
18 I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me.
19 And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted.
20 My God hath been my support; he hath led me through mine afflictions in the wilderness; and he hath preserved me upon the waters of the great deep.
21 He hath filled me with his love, even unto the consuming of my flesh.
… Lots of wow…god has done great things for me…yet I screw up…please keep helping me
34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I bask not amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the drock of my righteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen
4) Patriarchal blessing: Kind of struggle with them…find them full of generic statements that sort of could fit anyone. If you study psychics then they lose evenmore of their power…I may be jaded though…my Patriarch was excommunicated…for things he was doing when I got mine…whole new discussion there.
5) Masturbation. In regards to the churches approach and guilt, read my #1 and #3 answers. Our stake president actually said in stake priesthood meeting that Bishops shouldn’t be talking to kids about this…it is more appropriate between parents and kids….step in the right direction that.
Guilt will take you nowhere on this one…it will in fact deliever you into the adversaries hands. Guilt is a chain he hands us and we lock onto ourselves….forever holding the key. Christ died for all of your sins…not just the ones you did once. So why not just get high speed internet and lock yourself in your room all day? Because thats giving up….he just wants you to keep working at it….and stop obsessing.
Another Story:
My wife was inthe Christmas choir for our stakes combined Christmas sacramanent (it was jsut for the 3 wards in teh building…but not important). She was on the stand, meeting was starting and she came down to me and said she thought she might be having a heart attack (we were both in our 30’s at the time). We got her checked out…no heart problems, just an anxiety attack.
My wife had never had an anxiety attack before…..so no big deal. Guess what…next time she is on the stand…she is so worried she might have an anxiety attack that she brings on an anxiety attack. So began a cycle that lasted over a year of serious problems. Any feeling of stress would cause her to worry about an attack, which would then cause an attack. It was not until she gained the discipline to let the worry go that she gained control. Over a decade later she still has to have mental discipline to “relax. you are not going to have an attack” every time her heart beats fast.
So goes the deal with maturbation/porn. God gave you the urges and unless you are broken, a well put together woman in a sweater will ilkely bring on a chemical reaction…..it doesn’t mean you are going to hell …it means you are human. If you want to overcome masturbation, work on it. Allow God to heal you, drop guilt, seek improvement, try to be a better you and don’t be surprised that your are not perfect…he made you that way so you can be humble and reach out to others who need help with empathy rather than condescension.
I love the physical attributes of women….how do I get myself to not immerse myself in porn? Respect, not guilt. We as men need to understand that women deserve respect. They desrve to be looked at as our equals, not like our favorite meal. The more disciplined I am in trying to have empathy for the women in my life the easier it is to avoid pornography out of respect for my friends and loved ones. If I fail on occasion, then I put it in context of my life as a whole, commit myself to work on being better, pray for Gods strength and move on. He gave me the urges so I figure he will help me get through it as long as I don’t freak out.
Sorry this is so long….if you want to see where too much guilt takes you, watch the Disney version of hunchback of Notre Dame….where the lustful leader starts blaming the object of his lust on the gorgeous girl….thats the end point of too much guilt…I believe this is why some cultures make women walk around in tents.
Finally, this site may or may not be the site for you. It has been a blessing in my life and I feel better about my life and the choices I’ve made because of what I’ve learned here. Everyone is different and has to discover for him/herself what we want with the LDS church.
Roadrunner wrote:Hi Johnh,
.. I start to get really angry when I think about people who get it both ways (no double entendre intended). .” .
Seriously…almost spit out my lunch laughing on this one. Sorry…used to be a construction worker and my inner gentile lurks close to the surface when it comes to my sense of humor
InquiringMind wrote:…I went on my mission, and less than a month after getting to my first area, I tore my ACL playing basketball with other missionaries on P-Day. I was wearing my garments at the time of the tear and I was keeping all the mission rules. I received a priesthood blessing and was told that I would be “healed in the due time of the Lord by the doctors and nurses.” I had to go home and have knee surgery to fix the torn ACL, and then I returned to my mission.
So, for one, why didn’t the garments protect me from the serious knee injury…
Ah…it was Gods will for your to tear your ACL….you might have beeen hit by a car or possibly become a democrat if you had not been sent home when you were….
Featherina wrote:What if…
The LDS version of truth, like all other versions is incomplete?
Gospel=good news.
If something is old, how can it be new?
We are meant to continue learning… born again & again, line upon line.
“By their fruits ye shall know them”…
If you’re not sure what to think of something contraversial…
…look at the consequences & imagine it’s ripple effect long term- in the big picture.
One of the worst feelings is to feel fooled.
Yet, we are & will be fooled to our dying day.
We cannot help but think subjectively & with limited awareness.
So we have parents, & then we also have belief systems to think for us until we learn to think for ourselves more.
But we never completely think as god – all knowing.
So, ideally, we pick “
functionalillusions.” In church, to help my sanity, I keep it simple, especially when teaching.
I focus on what I believe in that is common to what the church teaches.
I try to facilitate a good spirit – a good experience for everyone, more than getting through the lesson.
I’m not perfect – nobody is. I know I could’ve always done better – live & learn.
Thanks Featherina…i appreciate your perspective. especially the last part. I teach Elders Quorum twice a month and what you stated here is exactly how i manage it…Thanks so much for your input
This one kind of bothers me too….. Spirit in Pre-existence, have no experience with earth, physical bodies, etc.
Given a choice, some think “70 years with Lucidork and I can come home again…compared to eternity thats nothing”
Now you say …it wasn’t just a choice…they rebelled against god and there was a war in heaven! I say…how bad a war could it be? They have no physical bodies, can’t feel pain, can’t hurt each other….maybe they can call each other names, maybe write nasty things about each other using really lightweight crayons?
So…eternal damnation for disagreement….for what sounds like their first ever disagreement…seems a little harsh for a loving god. So I think this is more of a parable….at least I hope it is because I can’t think of anything they can do there that has not been done way worse here…and the folks here get to rock the telestial kingdom no matter what.
My heart tells me that if there are a third who were cast out that a loving father will find a way to help all who have learned their lesson to come back….at least that is my hope.
3 finger ties My mission president and his wife felt that ties narrower than 3 fingers (held together) were not worthy of a missionary.
I remember one meeting in the mission home when the Presidents wife was bearing testimony and she got all choked up…we are all thinking “wow…something really spiritual is coming” she then says “Oh Elders…I can’t tell you how hurt and disappointed I felt when visiting the neighboring mission and one of the Elders there asked me if it was true that Elders in our mission
wore skinny ties!”. Needless to say I had to restrain myself from outright mocking this um..”dear sister” Weird Stuff about populating our spiritual families:
Basically it has been taught that main’ babies is had the same way there as here. I a guessing pregnancy is much shorter there or else it will take a long time to get enough to populate a planet…though the we get to make our own planets seems to be a bit up in the air as official doctrine now. Other thoughts: Lots more women than men so we get polygamy…eternal men will have perfect bodies so will not need sleep? Men get pregnant too?
If Adam had eaten the apple first, would women have gotten the priesthood and men been deemed the subservient ones?
Another Afterlife Question I have had is:
People have been told they will raise the children in the afterlife who die while young here. Seems a bit strange to me…and seems to fly in the face of the whole ressurected with perfect body, not growing old thing.
Also, if in the end, we want to “be together forever” and everyone in the celestial kingdom is sealed….doesn’t this really mean we are all just hanging out together? I must say that the concept of heaven in the Christian definition is a struggle for me right now. The more I think about it the less interesting it becomes.
