[Jordan]

marcus wrote:

I have tried reading my scriptures everyday, I have tried going by the river and praying and “pouring” my soul to God. I have yelled at him, I have pleaded, I have begged, I have bribed, (As king lamoni’s father will give all my sins to know thee… not that I am a sinful man really…) Threatened to leave the church, I have gotten blessings, I have just come to the conclusion either A. God hates me and doesn’t want to answer me. Or B. God doesn’t exsist. Or C. God does exsist just doesn’t care about me individually.

Yeah, welcome Marcus. Loved your intro. Honest and clear.

And I loved how you described your thought process above. Many of us relate. It’s my hope that over time as you explore the site and your soul, you’ll see more options emerge. Tough road. Glad you’re here.

[Jordan]

Heber13 wrote:

I really like it. At the top of my list of books, and really helped me strengthen my testimony in the prophet Joseph Smith at a time I was ready to denounce it.

Yes! Totally. This book helps prove what Alexander Pope wrote:

“A little learning is a dang’rous thing;

Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:

There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,

And drinking largely sobers us again. “

We get a little bit of knowledge that shakes our world, but geting a better and more complete picture can sooth us again. Was my experience, too.

[Jordan]

Yes, welcome.

Your story makes me think of a quote I just read by Georges Bernanos:

“In order to be prepared to hope in what does not deceive, we must first lose hope in everything that deceives.”

Not an easy path, but one worth taking. Let us know where it leads you.

[Jordan]

sheesh.

i need this book.

[Jordan]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

There’s no personal growth in an echo chamber.

I like this.

[Jordan]

1topen wrote:

Perhaps it is only when you have become perfected in your ability to lose sight of your own self/immediate family etc, that you can then achieve both love and perfection at the same time. But it is a product of your behavior not a motivating factor for that behavior.

LOVE your post.

I agree, too. It’s like to the competing plans during the war in heaven… Christ’s plan WAS charity, losing yourself, TRUE love. Satan’s was selfishness, etc.

I think that true love, losing ourselves for another is the key to the whole story. True love is hard, but it is DEEPER, like you say. I was shocked, too, by the difference in my love after this very difficult change in perspective. It’s made the journey so very worthwhile.

Again, love your post.

[Jordan]

borninit wrote:

I find it funny that I am part of a forum where the broken and damaged testimonies are trying hard to climb up, but yet I am trying to break down my own self and descend from my lofty perch, and to be let free and worship Christ in a more unique way independent if only a little bit from the church and its cultures.

Yes, excellent.

I’ve felt this paradox, too. They strangely go together, breaking down our old selves and trying to build up something new and stronger.

[Jordan]

Heber13 wrote:

I think when you are 100% obedient to God’s commandments…you are expressing 100% love to God for understanding His will and for your neighbor for serving God and blessing your neighbor…..

…..Think of Christ healing on the sabbath… that act was perfectly obedient in keeping the sabbath holy and loving others and loving God. Those who saw it repulsive and wrong were the ones not understanding the commandment in the first place.

Excellent!

When we are more perfectly loving, we will inevitably seem to become more obedient, even if it’s not recognized as such.

And borninit’s right. No need to break any commandment’s when we are perfectly loving – no commandment is at odds with love.

[Jordan]

Great topic, guys.

HiJolly wrote:

We first start out obeying due to either example or coersion. At least, I did. Then it was reinforced by the Church’s social/cultural ‘norm’ of (surface) obedience.

Then I found as I obeyed at length and did so because *I* mostly wanted to, that the reasons for the commandments began to be clear to me.

Then after a while God blessed me with His Love (a mystical consciousness kinda thing) and then at last, for the first time, I knew what love really was! I also knew the significance of the statement “We love Him because He first Loved us”.

Then at last, the commandments became a joy to live, as I understood “If ye love me, keep my commandments”.

That was/is my journey.

HiJolly

I think this is absolute poetry.

Commandments aren’t made to be kept. They are tools to be used.

That duty driven obedience is good starting out, good for getting us into good habits. But invariably we ask ourselves ‘what am I doing?‘ just like Daniel Caruso in the Karate Kid (YES, I did just cite the Karate freaking Kid. Rent it.)

But we’re not using the rules the way they were meant to be used until we see what they’re for. Daniel-san had trouble obeying ‘wax on wax off’ until he saw that doing it made him awesome. Suddenly the idea of obeying disappeared, swallowed by the idea of becoming.

There comes a point where we stop obeying the rules. Instead we do things for love of a purpose. So, in my foggy brain (a brain that cites 80s movies as much as humanly possible), comparing perfect obedience to perfect love is like comparing waxing cars to winning a fight. They can’t be at odds. Commandments are tools. We use them or we don’t. When used without insight, we grow resentful. When used with insight, we grow in love.

[Jordan]

Heber13 wrote:

From personal experience, that is extremely difficult to delicately do that and not make them feel your disapproval of bahavior is not loving them as a person.

Right. Nothing harder than ‘tough love.’ Sometimes being truly loving means we’ll be hated. But ‘true’ love is ALWAYS for the recipient’s spiritual growth. Navigating through that is (you used the perfect word) delicate.

swimordie wrote:

Sometimes, good people are just broken. That doesn’t make them bad people. It makes them broken.

This is very beautiful. And this sentiment is essential, I believe, in not just loving addicts, but addressing almost all ‘sin.’ In fact, addiction can be seen as a paradigm for almost all human frailty (though there’s debate in psychiatry on how specifically to define non-physical addictions). We’re ALL sinners. Christ sees the goodness potential in all of us, and we’re called, I believe, to see the same. Labeling people as ‘bad’ keeps things simple but renders us useless in reaching out to people in pain. We’re all ‘savable,’ and so much (if not all) of our mistakes are fruits of our insecurities.

[Jordan]

swimordie wrote:

There just needs to be an awareness of how controlling the addiction can be. And, again, it’s NOT weakness, pride, selfishness. It’s emotional brokenness. And it’s just as real as a broken arm or schizophrenia or any other debilitating disease/condition.

Well, you guys are ALL right, in a sense. we treat addictions with both emotionally corrective empathy AND setting basic limits. Without empathy there’s little healing, and without limits there’s little progress. Part of the success of AA or NA is that they provide both in a group setting. So does/should the church.

[Jordan]

swimordie wrote:

My most pressing concerns now, in stage 4, are how to help my kids past the stage 3 they are being immersed in at church right now.(which I know is an important step in the process)

This is a VERY interesting topic. Maybe the new thread will really open it up but I thought I’d mention something here.

I don’t think you CAN help your kids past stage 3. This may be babble, but here’s some of my thoughts.

When it comes to stages…. As we sort of ‘wake up’ and find ourselves seeing the world with our new eyes (these ‘stages’ really come down to ‘worldview’), we see people in stages ‘below’ us, and generally they can’t ‘see’ what we see. We want to wake them up to the newness we now see, or at least prepare them for what they’ll inevitably discover as they mature. We may have all felt this to some degree (my very concrete thinking and lovable brother just does NOT get me.)

Couple of things…. First, yes, Fowler described the stages as being progressive, but most people live and die in a stage 3ish area. Second, much of one’s ability to even grasp the concepts necessary to reach a ‘higher’ stage come from inborn temperament or predisposition, meaning many people can’t progress to a 4 or 5 (at least not in this life, right?). Many, of us, on the other hand, were destined to find ourselves here merely because of our personalities (I think we have a meyers briggs thread already going somewhere). Third, the church is very stage 3, but it takes stage 3’s to run things like this. 4s are too disseminating and 5s too tolerant, passive. If the church wasn’t stage 3, it would melt.

All that comes down to this, in my mind. We are not judged, I believe, on what stage we have reached on earth; rather we are judged simply on how well we forgive and repent, and a person in ANY stage (and in any religion) can become expert at this regardless of how open or blind their worldview may be. Progressing to higher stage does little more, IMO, than increase our capacity for love, for patience, and understanding, wisdom. And these are blessings for our enjoyment, gifts from God, not signs of intelligence or righteousness. And the only huge difference, I think, between a stage 4 and stage 5 person is the 5’s acceptance of this crazy universe and all it’s crazy people no matter where they are, the sort of acceptance that God has for us.

What I’m getting at is that our children or students may never progress to a higher stage, and they don’t necessarily have to. If they do, great, we’ll be there to love them through the difficulty of the process, we’ll be able to tell them that it’s all worth it. If they don’t progress, then great – they may be missing out on some of the enjoyment and wisdom that comes from this sort of growth, but that’s okay. They’ll have plenty of joy/wisdom appropriate for their lives, their mission. The gospel’s call to forgive and repent is still their’s to hear.

This may come across as being super passive (and maybe too passive) but I try to accept the program as it is, warts and all. Didn’t used to. I pray that my students and/or kids will gleen goodness from mormonism, because there’s plenty. And maybe this sort of acceptence is innoculation enough for our children/students, maybe they’ll sense our peace with all things complicated and remember it when (or if) complexity socks them in the face. Maybe not, I don’t know….. I’m still trying to figure all this jazz out, too.

[Jordan]

swimordie wrote:

I agree, jmason and bruce, the church disciplinary system dealing with addicts is woefully, shamefully inadequate. I would imagine that in most cases, an addict will get worse after this experience. Mostly because the addiction is usually fueled by a lack of self-worth and a lack of feeling worthy of good things happening to oneself. And disciplinary action would validate the low self-worth and unworthiness thus accelerating the addict cycle down.

sometimes very true. but sometimes addicts need tough love. addicts face strict rules in other groups like AA, NA; and they’ll call you out if you’re not getting with the program.

good thing these disciplinary meetings call upon the spirit because they need it – every case so unique, and messing with the soul can be dangerous. But, like I said, when done right, I think these meetings work beautifully.

[Jordan]

just me wrote:

He talks a lot about the need for a new, universal myth in our times. I think about it sometimes as I’m driving or whatever. If we need a new modern myth that will be powerful enough for all cultures what would it be like?

Campbell was George Lucas’ inspiration for Star Wars…..

Campbell really gives a reverence for myth, story, tradition, and ritual. As we go through our deep struggles our faith, we need to be careful to not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[Jordan]

Started a thread in Spiritual Stuff with the same quote at http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=744.

Comes from his chapter titled ‘Sincerity.’

“The leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would offer this suggestion: Start where you are. What do you believe? Start with that and take it as far as you can down life’s highway. Another truth will meet you at nearly every bend in the road. God has never intended that an honest mind should be humiliated or made unwelcome in the Church by any other member because of honest inquiry. Above all, keep the virtues of integrity, sincerity, and genuineness. Nothing else can be right in a man’s life if he is not sincere.”

The whole book glows with awesomeness.

Seriously…..

[Author]

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