[Jordan]

Bill Atkinson wrote:

So if you can help me before I step over the edge I would really appreciate it because I honestly feel that we are doing our young people a major disservice amounting almost to religious abuse in not giving them a more honest, balanced and nuanced understanding of the gospel and the scriptures.

I taught the youth for a number of years and know where you’re coming from. As we grow spiritually, it’s like our eyes are opened, and we want to rush and awaken the world to what we see (Plato’s Cave, anyone?).

I was always honest, balanced and, yes, nuanced when I could be, but I had to be careful that I was not preaching MY gospel to the kids. Even if I felt I was right on a particular point, I deferred to church. The church is a tool for growth, and it works beautifully most of the time. It wasn’t for me to rewrite it based on personal insights or revelation – again, even if I felt I was right. It was up to me to trust in the program, and trust that God is nurturing the spiritual growth of the students in spite of me, in spite of the church’s warts – I was just there to help if I could, bear some testimony, give some candy, offer a hand.

Part of our journey is to accept the church as a whole (like accepting an imperfect spouse/friend/child/movie/dinner/you get it). The manuals aren’t perfect, the classes could be better, etc. Would I rewrite them? Maybe. But they are beautiful in many ways, and useful. And as long as we’re trying to change them, we won’t see that.

[Jordan]

believeroftruth wrote:

Why? what in the world does disfellowshipment accomplish? How come when a person is most in need of love and support the church chooses to isolate them by not allowing them to speak, pray, take the sacrament, etc. Think of the rumors and gossip this kind of thing causes. Instead of support, the person is most likely judged again, and shunned by other more “worthy” church members. I am not saying this last scenario always occurs, many people are truly Christ-like and do not judge, but you have to agree that it does occur.

I would tend to think the same way – if we’re going to err, ALWAYS err on the side of mercy. God can pick up the pieces later and exact justice if need be.

But so much of this perspective comes from my own temperament. Christ certainly wasn’t always this way. There were times that he turned over tables and condemned people to hell.

We have to judge. Righteous judging is truly loving (think of a parent correcting a child). We are not truly loving if we do not call each other out every once and a while. And my temperament makes this more difficult for me – but it’s got to be done and I’m glad there are people that are better at it.

Part of my becoming a more whole (Christlike) person is accepting the ‘shadow’ part of myself, learning to think in a way that is not natural for me. Maybe as I become more whole, I’ll be able to see all that God sees. Until then, I think God will use different people differently. I know I’ll reach people that others won’t, and others will reach people that I just can’t. Sometimes people need to be forgiven, sometimes disciplined.

I trust, most of the time, the process works more than well, and when it doesn’t, I trust that God will pick up the pieces for all the well intentioned mistakes we make, all the people that we needlessly hurt. I think He will.

[Jordan]

Orson wrote:

Jordan who?

Hey, the jedi/zen master has returned! Good to see you again!

HA!

When I saw you were still around Orson, I took a deep breath and knew that all was right in the world, ……are you one of the 3 nephites?….

[Jordan]

Old-Timer wrote:

If I were limited to one piece of advice only, it probably would be to focus on identifying the characteristics of godliness and working to internalize them. Everything else flows from becoming more like Jesus, and I believe that has to be an effort undertaken independent of church activity to be accomplished as fully as possible.

This is gold. Gold, Ray.

[Jordan]

GDTeacher wrote:

Orson wrote:

A religious or spiritual experience to me is witnessing the power of love, or the strength of a common desire for good – a cause to unite. To me this entire process (in and out of church association) is a meaningful progression, a way to ‘become’ better personally. I think I hold that desire in common with the greater church body, and I cherish that common goal.

This reminds me to a degree of the Jonathan Haidt’s writings on “elevation.” The power of love, acts of compassion, helping each other, common good, are all spiritually powerful to me.

I really dig Jonathan Haidt. The Happiness Hypothesis was a wonderful book.

I love everything that Orson has ever said, ever.

I agree. I think this whole process is the way wisdom is born. Hard earned wisdom. And this wisdom makes us more Christian.

[Jordan]

I absolutely love it, too. wow, jolt of goodness.

The question for us is this: can we have that same kind of experience at church? We are all so very aware of what we do and do not gel with at church. Can we forget all that and just start to love people?

Like I’ve said before, sometimes leaving the church is the right thing for someone. But people who leave rashly deny themselves this chance.

I think part of the reason the church exists is to give us the chance to learn to love strangers.

[Jordan]

love it. reminds of the steps Ben Franklin took to ‘perfect’ himself. He owed, he said, all of the success of his later years to the resolutions he made in his early.

[Jordan]

Old-Timer wrote:

To me “reconcilable” simply means “able to be viewed in a way that brings peace” – even if that peace means something is seen as wrong in the end. I might classify this as finding a way to see something charitably – or in a way that doesn’t produce anger or snobbery or condemnation.

love that.

[Jordan]

kupord maizzed wrote:

Jordan Turner wrote:

These issues are reconcilable.

1. What do you mean by “reconcilable”?

2. What issues?

3. Reconcilable with what?

KM

Good question.

Many times, not always, someone’s faith is ‘fine’ when some sort of information or event propels them into a world of disillusionment, anger. What I mean above is that we do not have to live with anger and disillusionment forever. There is a place of reconciliation, resolution within the church even after having gone through this process. Such has been my experience.

I do NOT mean that these disillusioning issues are always resolvable in the apologetic sense or that orthodoxy always wins. But more that they are resolvable with an expansion of thinking.

People may decide to leave the church or stay, and I’m happy for whatever one decides. What I want to prevent is uncomplicated thinking, or throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Often people come across new information and are so disheartened that they leave angry. I believe that these moments of doubt and frustration are golden moments for the expansion of consiousness.

My experience, for example, taught me something about history. I was so sure of our church’s unspotted history until I came across certain stains. Then I was so sure our history was tainted, unreliable. Well, the more I’ve studied, waited, and wondered, I’ve learned to never be sure about history. So much is unknowable. Antimormons are right and wrong. Apologists are right and wrong.

This was tremendous growth for me. I was freed from black and white thinking (when it came to history, at least). I was not able to make an honest decision to leave or stay based on history because it is too ambiguous. Instead I had to expand my thinking and make such a decision based on deeper reasoning. Christ, scripture, goodness, family, community, faith – all of which are debatable, but deeper.

So, staying in the church is not always the right answer, of course. But I do think most initial disillusioning issues are resolvable with an expansion of consiousness.

[Jordan]

SallyM wrote:

This was hard for me, but I could not genuinely do anything else.

Hi Sally. I’m Jordan. Loved your post.

Being genuine is where God would always have us.

Quote:

I was so disturbed by the current leadership that I then started researching all modern day revelation to verify what I have a testimony of and what I have done due to culture/tradition/out of respect etc….and have since lost my testimony of the temple, and also question a lot regarding JS and BY.

I know how this goes. A total domino effect. I had the same thing. Different starting point, but same result.

Quote:

The whole thing started me on a journey of discovery that I wish I never went on.

This caught my eye. I remember feeling the same way. If you stay ‘genuine,’ you won’t always feel this way. As it has unfolded for me, this struggle has become precious to me. It’s made me find myself.

Quote:

Well then the 1st C basically just really stressed to me that I should seek a greater testimony of the BoM. This advice did kind of blow me away. I actually dont have huge issues with the BoM. I like the book. I dont care if it is fact or not, as I often learn something when I read it. I think the book is good. It may or may not be truth or divine, but Ive had good experiences with it. However even if it was proven to be all that we are taught in Primary, that does not alter my doubts over so many other parts of the church, and what past prophets have commanded us to do.

Yes, the book is good, and may or may not be perfect. It’s funny, but that’s how many come to feel about the other aspects about the church, even JS up to modern day prophets. They are good, may or may not be perfect, and we’ve had good experiences there – worth investing in, worth believing, worth following, trusting, but not perfect.

Makes me think of the faith described in alma 32. faith that’s worth chasing because it’s good.

Good doubting, on the other hand, is always good. It leads to deeper thinking and better truth.

Quote:

Its the first time EVER I have said no. I guess that is probably why it feels odd. I want to remain a member but if I was honest I have no idea how it all will pan out. Time will tell….

You may or may not decide to stay a member of the church. My only advice here would be to decide from a place of peace. Don’t leave angry or confused. Be patient and give these issues time. I’m glad I did not leave too soon because I’ve found a place of genuine peace and goodness within the church that I cherish. These issues are reconcilable. So if you leave, leave because it’s better to leave. If you stay, stay because it’s better to stay.

The journey is worth it. I’m excited to see where it takes you.

[Author]

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