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mom3 You have been so kind, thank you for responding. I actually do meditate but I only average about once a week. I know that it is something you need to do consistently to get any benefit so I do want to try to do it more often. I am seeing a counselor that really has helped me over the past couple of months. She has helped me not to be so critical of myself.
Beefster
I can’t leave, so I am trying to find the right middle ground that won’t push me over the edge but that my husband can deal with also. It’s a hard process.
Silent Dawning
I so wish others could be happy for you if you have found a path that helps you feel peace. It just seems that the church has created an environment where you are 100 percent wrong if you are on a different path. It doesn’t matter if it affects your health (mental or physical), you have been deceived if you choose another way. It does seem like it would be more Christlike to just be happy for someone who feels like they have found what is right for them.
Roy
I loved the questions you came up with. These are the type of circumstances that are so troubling to me. I am going to save these for a day when I am trying to explain why I feel the church is damaging to me. It articulates it much better than I can when I am emotional and flustered. Thank you!
Dande, my husband pretty much knows everything. He has actually been less understanding then I thought he would be. I think that is why I feel so trapped. I am trying to do the minimum I need to in order to get by but I know he wants much more from me. He is not happy with me right now and I feel bad that this has hurt him so much. Mom3, Thank you. I do know that we are not the only religion that puts pressure on it’s members. I feel the temple ups the ante quite a bit but I definitely agree with you. You are right that it’s not specific instances that have caused me to want to be done but the feeling of being trapped. I realize that saying no to the calling isn’t the end of the world but I’m tired of the pressure and the guilt. I’ve always beat myself up and told myself that I’m not selfless enough, that I don’t serve and dedicate my life to church like many people do. I’ve felt that I am one of the “weak” members and that Heavenly Father is disappointed in me. That article helped me realize that maybe I’m not as bad as I thought I was and that maybe the church has been wrong on heaping all of this responsibility and pressure on it’s members. I feel so different from anyone else and I feel like I’m suffocating because I can’t just be myself. I’m starting to finally realize that the real me isn’t as worthless as I believed I was all of these years. That it could be the church is wrong to try to force everyone to believe exactly what they tell you to believe and do everything they ask you to do. Venting to this forum has helped and I appreciate your kind voice instead of the condemning voices I hear so often. Reuben, thank you for kind words. I’m sorry for the abuse that you suffered when you were growing up. As I told Nibbler, I hope that my use of the word doesn’t offend you. I obviously haven’t feared for my safety in the church as you had to do daily. When I talk about spiritual abuse I’m not even really talking only about things that I have experienced but for what others have experienced also. I feel that the culture that is created is toxic to some. My VT partner has SO much going on in her life over the years and she still gets called to the most stressful callings and is asked to do everything to help. I don’t know if anyone has ever said to her, “you need a break”. But yet she will never say no so she just keeps plowing along trying to survive. Many times when we meet monthly she is in tears. I just want to yell at her that it’s okay to say no. If you don’t look after yourself in this organization it feels like no one else will look out for you. By bringing God up in everything it makes so many of us feel like by saying no to anything in church you are saying no to God. So even if you do say no you are wracked with guilt and you are still miserable. It just seems so manipulative and uncaring to me. You’re right. It feels un-Christlike.
Beefster, I agreed with everything word for word that you said except for the last part where you want to make a difference.
I just reread my posts and boy do these sound like “poor me”. I would delete everything because it is pretty embarrassing but it feels good to vent. Thank you to everyone here for letting me do that.
Dande, I do appreciate what you are saying. Just to clarify the bishops I was talking about are very good, kind men. I could tell when they were talking to me they were trying to follow a script. They even fumbled over the words. The looked awkward and I felt awkward. This is something they did because they were told to do it by someone higher up than them. It’s part of the system. I don’t view those men as spiritual abusers, I blame the system. Believe me I would love to just fold them and walk away and run. But now I’m ensnared in it because of family. I feel like I have to sacrifice my mental well being in order to save myself the trauma of major family issues. In other words, I feel trapped because of the way this organization is set up. It’s actually working exactly as it should. I can’t leave without sacrificing some of the things most important to me in the world. I have to choose between self preservation or maintaining peace keeping out strife in my family. So I am still hanging in there by a thread. Again, I feel this is abusive but maybe it’s just very manipulating, I don’t know the difference.
Nibbler, I am so sorry for what you have went through. I really hope I haven’t minimized what you have been through by claiming abuse. Maybe since I haven’t been through real abuse such as you have, I am using the term too lightly. I apologize if that’s the case. I really don’t like it when people throw these powerful words around which downplays real tragedy and I hope I haven’t made you feel that way.
I feel this church rules by fear which really plays into my anxiety. Probably most people aren’t affected like I am and so I probably sound very melodramatic. I love this part of a talk by Pres. Uchtdorf though from April 2017:
“It is true that fear can have a powerful influence over our actions and behavior. But that influence tends to be temporary and shallow. Fear rarely has the power to change our hearts, and it will never transform us into people who love what is right and who want to obey Heavenly Father.
People who are fearful may say and do the right things, but they do not feel the right things. They often feel helpless and resentful, even angry. Over time these feelings lead to mistrust, defiance, even rebellion.
Unfortunately, this misguided approach to life and leadership is not limited to the secular world. It grieves me to hear of Church members who exercise unrighteous dominion—whether in their homes, in their Church callings, at work, or in their daily interactions with others.
Often, people may condemn bullying in others, yet they cannot see it in themselves. They demand compliance with their own arbitrary rules, but when others don’t follow these random rules, they chasten them verbally, emotionally, and sometimes even physically.
The Lord has said that “when we … exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, … the heavens withdraw themselves [and] the Spirit of the Lord is grieved.”2
There may be moments when we are tempted to justify our actions by believing that the end justifies the means. We might even think that to be controlling, manipulative, and harsh will be for the good of others. Not so, for the Lord has made it clear that “the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, [and] temperance.”3
Roy, thank you so much for your reply. This has been weighing on my mind for months now. I very much agree about throwing around inflammatory words so that the original word loses its powerful meaning. However, I still feel like the church can be abusive and I am not just talking about the “one true church” rhetoric. But since they use that line, it enables them to abuse in other ways.
For instance:
1. I was told that God wanted me to be YWP. I wasn’t even allowed to say yes or no. Since that was stated, it was over. I bumbled my way out the door and cried. It was the most miserable 2 years of my life. I believe that was abuse of authority. When you hold God over someone’s head that loves God very much, you are emotionally manipulating them. God did make good out of a bad situation during that calling by having me learn life changing lessons which have very much contributed to where I am today. I doubt the church believes God was involved in those lessons because they definitely didn’t strengthen my testimony.
2. i was just brought in by my bishop and told that if I believed in the prophet then I would accept a calling. I am certainly in no position to do that right now but I guess since I said no, then I don’t believe in the prophet
:wtf: . I reluctantly told him about my personal problems to try to explain what was going on. He said that he was going to meet with me monthly to check up on me to see when I’m ready for my calling and proceeded to ask me if I felt guilty because that could be contributing to my problems. I believe that is abuse of authority and emotional abuse. He is a very nice man but I really don’t need to feel guilty. That is one of the reasons that I am where I am.3. The biggest evidence I feel of abuse is the good old temple recommend. They wave that thing over your head to get to to fall right in line.
a. Don’t pay tithing and you don’t get to be with your family forever. That is spiritual and emotional abuse if I ever saw it. It could also be called blackmail.
b. Don’t believe in the restoration? well, then you don’t get to see your child get married. Completely abusive in my opinion.
c. I know you have anxiety and the thought of church makes you sick but if you don’t get to all 3 hours then yep, you don’t get to live with God, who you love with all of your heart.
How is threatening you with being separated from the beings you value the most in your life, God, Jesus and family not abusive? If someone kidnapped my child and wouldn’t let me ever see him again unless I complied with his demands, I would think that is not just abusive but sick and cruel This has caused me so much stress in my life. I love my family so much. I love Heavenly Father and Jesus so much, I am sick and tired of trying to jump through hoops. I’m sick and tired of trying to be somebody I’m not. I’m sick and tired of not being able to worship in a way that feels right to me.
I’m sure some might say well just live authentically. That doesn’t work when you have a TBM husband that agrees with the church in all of the above or when I have a child who could be getting married in the temple. I might have to sacrifice seeing that or drive myself to the point where I am hardly functional. (I’m not exaggerating. It completely happened during my last 2 high pressure callings)
I’m sorry Roy, I’m not directing this on you. I am just feel so trapped and frustrated right now. I am working on getting well but the church is a huge stumbling block in me getting there.
Thank you to anyone who endured reading this and thank you for letting me vent. I needed that right now.
I really have enjoyed this thread, thank you for starting it Reuben. I have been mentally out since I read a few books on spiritual abuse. I always just fell in line my whole life. When I looked at the way members are treated from the outside looking in, it just seems so manipulative. The “one true church” line is a method of control by implying you can’t get to Heaven any other way. You’re stuck with us or goodbye family.
Also, IMO the whole temple recommend process is abusive. It creates a class system on who the “worthy” members are and who the slackers are. You are above others when you have that recommend. To me, it is like separating here on earth who is going to the Celestial kingdom and who is not. This is all decided by leaders. God is left out of it. When leaders are put in the position of being judge and jury during this life, it can create an abusive and manipulative situation. Basically, “we hold the cards to your salvation so you need to fall in line”. It really makes me sad when people feel there fate could be decided over a cup of coffee or sip of alcohol. It doesn’t make sense and I think it is wrong.
I believe that members and leaders of are church are great people for the most part. They are kind and successful. The church just reminds me of the Pharisees sometimes. It looks awesome on the outside but sometimes it is hard to find the heart and soul on the inside.
Quote:My short version is that sustain means: they aren’t good enough to be a prophet, but with my help…
😆 Quote:This is one thing that I really wish was true of my experience with the church. I really feel that the church culture was that we were following all of these steps as requirements to earn God’s love/favor/blessings.
This is at odds with the concept of having an inalienable father son relationship with my God. That He will love me and do what is best for me no matter what I do. And that I can choose to obey out of love for Him – knowing that my position with Him was always secure and never hung in the balance.
I do believe that the church teaches grace here and there but it has been my experience that you need to know where to look for it… and you need to get better at ignoring all the stuff that says you must earn your way into heaven.
Roy, I agree with everything you said whole heartedly. If we talked about that type of grace in the church more, I would actually look forward to going to church on Sundays.
Thank you Dark Jedi for those threads. I have skimmed through both of them and I will read them more thoroughly tonight. I appreciate the more nuanced view of the temple recommend questions and what it means to sustain a leader. As much as I want to believe how “enlightened” I have become, I really think I am trapped in the black and white thinking that I have grown up in. I am such a darned rule follower. I’m either obeying the right way or I’m failing. (Hence the reason that I am worn down by the church right now) Nibbler, I see what you’re saying. And I probably came across as accusing the leaders of being a bunch of control freaks who just want to make my life miserable. Honestly, I believe a lot of their reasoning is that their hands are tied as you said. Rules are rules and that’s the way it has always been. Sometimes, when I’m in a more cynical mood, I think that temple recommend questions have been used to get what they want from members so that the church can be run better. An example would be tithing added to the TR questions because they were in debt. Question the leaders in public? You could have your temple recommend, i.e. families are forever and eternal salvation, taken away. It makes their lives easier. Which I don’t blame them, I would not like to have their job. The rules before people culture you mentioned really resonates with me. It’s too bad it has to be this way.
I have read a couple of books lately about how sometimes religion can take away from your relationship with Christ. That the reason Jesus corrected the Pharisees so much is because all the rules they created prevented people from focusing on Him. That made so much sense to me. I’m doing it right now. I’m spending so much time on trying to figure out which rules I should follow and which ones I should let go. I just want to get rid of all the other voices and try to figure out what Jesus wants me to do. Sounds pretty basic I know but I really would love to know what He wants from me and what He wants me to believe because I have no I idea what I believe myself right now.
This board and the people here are so amazing. I can’t thank you enough for the understanding, empathetic responses and for giving me a safe place to vent. Although, I don’t post much, I read almost everyday and it keeps me from being hard hearted and bitter. I’m sorry Silent Dawning for side-tracking your thread but thank you for creating it.
Quote:I don’t believe in polygamy. Not everybody knows that because I don’t wear a lapel pin that says so. If the subject comes up and I feel I’m in safe company I’ll say so. In “public” I make a joke of it. (“One wife is plenty for me!”) My SP does know I don’t believe in polygamy. I’m not sure he does either, he doesn’t defend it. My last TR interview was a few months ago. I don’t remember there being a question about polygamy. I also don’t remember there being questions about the Book of Mormon, prayer, FHE, or lots of other things. The sustaining question starts with “Do you…?” It’s asking you, not your bishop. It’s not about what he believes it’s about what you believe. Other than your yes or no answer (obviously it needs to be yes to get a TR) he has no way of knowing if you sustain him (or anyone else) or not – and he’s not allowed to ask further. Polygamy and sustaining church leaders are completely separate issues and one is a TR question the other is not. Seriously, the best policy in a TR interview is to answer only yes or no as appropriate – elaboration is neither necessary nor desirable.
If I don’t believe in polygamy though then aren’t I not sustaining Joseph Smith as a prophet? I don’t believe in that the LGTB children policy was revelation but Russell Nelson said that it was. Does that mean I don’t sustain him? I’ll be honest, when I see quotes from Harold B. Lee that I have to treat their words as if coming from God himself, I don’t believe that either. So do I really sustain my leaders? I’m being honest hopefully it’s not coming off as snarky. I don’t know what sustaining really means. I respect them in that I really believe they are trying to do their best. (Joseph Smith I’m not so sure. My opinion of him is pretty low right now) I hate the thought of lying in an interview but I also hate the though of not seeing my kid get married, if it ends up happening.
I
Quote:have said this in public before (not from the pulpit though): The church is very much like Satan – it only has as much control over you as you let it have.
That is a great thought. I’m going to have to remember this when I start letting myself get stressed over it. I also love the Uchtdorf quote, listening to his talks is what gets me through much of the time.Thanks Doubting Tom and Dark Jedi for your TR interview advice. It is causing me a lot of anxiety right now. I felt like I was already teetering on the edge of dishonesty during my last interview but I have been feeling even worse lately about answering the sustaining and believing question honestly.
Thank you Heber for your thoughtful reply and to everyone else who is contributing on this thread. The obedience subject is such a sore spot to me that now when I hear the word I immediately don’t want to obey. (childish, I know) I want to hear a message that inspires me to obey not demands or strongly suggests that I obey. Nibbler had a good point about the TR aspect, though. Since one of the questions is “do you sustain your leaders?”, you could technically have your TR taken away if you do not meet the Bishop or SP’s definition of sustaining your leaders. There’s a chance that one of my children could get married in the temple in the near future. If I say I don’t believe in polygamy, even eternal polygamy and I don’t think it came from God, that Joseph Smith made a huge mistake, I could possibly be denied the chance to see my child get married. I really don’t think my bishop is the type of person who would do that but who knows?
Of course, I can just be authentic to myself and just take the beautiful parts of church and leave the rest, but when the church holds things over your head such as seeing your children’s marriage ceremony, then I start to feel trapped and very resentful. I believe this type of control that leaders can have over your life is what makes some people have hard judgements against the church organization.
LookingHard wrote:
Roy wrote:
Interesting situation. I believe that the church wants fully informed obedience (as opposed to blind obedience). They want your personal revelation line of authority to confirm and support what is said by the priesthood line of authority.Sometimes it is suggested that the two will never be in conflict. Sometimes it is suggested that even if you do not understand why you must do something – you will still be blessed for doing it. I feel that there is very little room for private interpretation or personal accommodation.
There is a paradox in this.
“You must ask God yourself … and keep on asking until He tells you that I am correct.”
So true. So true.
This is what I am talking about. Of course, they are not going to say you must have blind obedience, that would be foolish. They will tell you that you need to know for yourself. However, if you’re own revelation contradicts with theirs than you are disobeying God. Therefore unless you think you know more than God, your personal revelation is useless.
Heber, I appreciate your comments but here is a quote I found. “Then President Lee added a warning when he went on to say that we may not always like what comes from the authority of the Church, because it may conflict with our personal views or interfere with some of our social life. However, if we will listen to and do these things as if from the mouth of the Lord Himself, we will not be deceived and great blessings will be ours.”
This is from a General Conference 2002 talk by R Conrad Schultz. Sometimes I get a little frustrated of others saying that the church doesn’t preach blind obedience but when they say that you need to treat what the authority of the church says as if from the mouth of the Lord Himself,(as quoted by President Lee) how else should I interpret that?
Wow, it’s funny how many of the young men in other wards are allowed to wear colored shirts to pass the Sacrament. The last 2 wards I was in, that was a big no no. My boys, ( who did not like to bless or pass the Sacrament) loved this rule. They just made sure they wore colored shirts every week and they never had to do it. One time they were really desperate and one of the deacons ran over to my son and asked him to pass, his friend standing next to him said “He can’t, he has a grey shirt” and they left.
Another time, they actually did let him pass in a colored shirt. I thanked they Bishop that they overlooked that rule and let him pass the Sacrament. The Bishop looked at me kind of odd like he must not have been paying attention to the color of his shirt. He was never asked to pass the Sacrament again.
Sometimes we act like the Church of the Pharisees .
