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This thread is kind of old, but I’ll just add this for the benefit of anyone who’s interested: The author of the book is Dean Hughes. professionalmom wrote:I had the privilege of meeting Brother Gray several years ago and my 15 minutes with him changed my life.
Odd as it may sound, that makes total sense to me.
Old-Timer wrote:I want to draw everyone’s attention to a series of posts that Professor Margaret Young has written on By Common Consent. They highlight her time with Darius Gray, the founder of the Genesis Group for Black Mormons, at this year’s Mormon History Association conference. Margaret and Darius co-produced an astounding film, “Nobody Knows: The Untold Story of Black Mormons”. They are traveling the country showing the film at various festivals, and I personally admire Bro. Gray probably as much as any person in the history of the Church. He has cancer, but he is doing all he can to “build the kingdom” from which he was excluded in many important ways for years. If there is ANYONE who would have been justified in leaving the Church, it is this man – and
his dogged determination to not let anyone decide and define his faith for him blows me away.Truly, he is a modern hero in my eyes. As a newbie, I just saw this thread and must comment. I saw the film shortly after it was first produced and would highly recommend it. With regards to Darius Gray, I’m right there with you in terms of my admiration for him. I could count on one hand the number of people I do not know personally but admire tremendously, and he is absolutely one of them. Have you personally heard him speak, Ray? I have on two occasions and find that I simply do not have words to convey the spirit you feel in his presence. (If you knew me, you’d know how totally unlike me a statement like that actually is.) I am devastated to hear that he has cancer. He’s one truly incredible man.
Old-Timer wrote:Often, the “pure doctrine” is so entwined with the common / majority interpretations that it’s hard to separate them.
That is SO true. I think that actually explains about 90% of my own frustrations with the Church. I could probably come up with a dozen or so examples with very little effort. We are so conditioned to think of certain things as “doctrine” when in fact they really are just commonly accepted interpretations of doctrine. And “commonly accepted” doesn’t necessarily mean correct.
Tom Haws wrote:Today, adherence to the proscriptions of the Word of Wisdom is required for baptism and for entry into temples of the LDS Church.
Has anybody else ever stopped to wonder why we don’t excommunicate lifelong members of the Church who do not observe the Word of Wisdom, and yet we refuse baptism to people who would wish to convert but have a smoking problem, for instance? That has always been a problem with me. Smoking, I am told, is an extremely difficult habit to break. A person who was raised in the Church and taught the Word of Wisdom from childhood can continue to be a member of the Church, even though he would not be able to get a Temple recommend, and yet another person, who started smoking early in life without having had the benefit of the knowledge the Word of Wisdom gives us can’t be baptized and then, as a member of the Church, work on overcoming his addiction. That doesn’t seem very logical to me. Can anybody shed some light on this that might help me see thing differently?
Kinderhook08 wrote:I don’t know how to overcome this frustration and occasional anger I have. I’m so disillusioned with the church. It is like nothing they say is good enough for me anymore. I realize that some of the things they say are good but I guess I just don’t want to hear it from them anymore. I go to sacrament meeting and immediately want to leave because of what one of the speakers say. I no longer attend sunday school or priesthood because it is just way too frustrating for me to hear the same things over and over that I know are inaccurate.
I hear ya! I experience the same thing week after week and have done for years. Most of the time I’m at church (pretty much any of the three meetings) I am either (1) bored to death, (2) frustrated or angry because of what a speaker or teacher has said, or (3) feeling guilty over my frustration and anger.
Quote:I started this journey over 3 years ago and I still can’t get past these feelings. I still attend sacrament meeting for my family only. I don’t want my primary age kids to get confused or have mental anguish about having a non-believing dad, but I feel like I’m going crazy. I spend hours on the Internet trying to make sense of it all, talking with others in my situation but it has never really helped me to move on. This has been a major drag on my life for the last three years and I want it to be over, but I don’t know how to just let all the crap go and be a happy positive person again. HELP!!!
When you refer to yourself as a non-believing dad, are you saying that you really don’t believe the basic doctrines of the gospel or that you don’t believe some of the personal interpretations you hear regarding these doctrines? Because to me there is a huge difference. If you are okay with the basic doctrines of the Church but are not okay with the way in which these doctrines are explained or “expounded upon,” maybe knowing that there are a lot of people who share your feelings would help some. If you simply don’t believe the basic doctrines at all, then we’re talking about a different issue entirely.
catamount wrote:I personally really enjoy a cold beer from time to time. I haven’t been “drunk” since high school but I really enjoy it. In some ways it keeps me on the level, especially when the wife and I aren’t getting along too well or I’m really stressed about work. A beer or two and everything seems OK. Maybe the pres. drug use wouldn’t be so high if more people drank an occasional beer. The bad thing about living in Utah is nobody would really think anything bad about me if I walked out of the grocery store with a year supply of Mt. Dew in my basket but on the other hand if someone caught sight of me buying 1-24oz bud light at the gas station, everyone in the ward would here about it by weeks end. It’s a shame but that’s the way it is.
I don’t think I could drink a can of beer if my life depended on it. I just abhor the taste. On the other hand, I love wine. Because I’m a practicing Latter-day Saint, I avoid it, almost to the point of being a teetotaler. I say “almost” because I allow myself a drink of wine with my Thanksgiving dinner and another with my Christmas dinner. (My sister, who was raised in the Church but is no longer active, always makes sure there are a couple of bottles at those two meals.) I’ve been in my ward for 27 years now, and I don’t believe a single one of my fellow ward members knows. When I go in for my temple recommend, I always feel so guilty when I say that I’m living the Word of Wisdom — just because of those two glasses of wine! On a purely objective level, I have no trouble whatsoever, justifying my response, but I have always wondered if admitting to two glasses of wine a year would keep me from getting the recommend.
catamount wrote:If the WoW is of God and we will be judged for how well we take care of our physical bodies…who would be judged more harshly…a good mormon Bishop that dies in his 60’s 100#’s overweight, a stay at home mom that lives the mormon teachings to a T but is hooked on diet coke and nurses on a 64 oz come back mug all day…or a good all around guy that lives a good life, keep the commandments but drinks a few beers from time to time, never enough to get flat out drunk by the way
🙄 Anyway what do you think?You post, and particularly this specific question, really hit home with me. I have had the same thoughts ever since I was a child — probably because my parents neither one lived the Word of Wisdom fully (even though they were both active in the Church). Both of them were such incredibly good people; they just don’t come any better. To me, the Word of Wisdom, whether it is a commandment or merely a “word of wisdom” is, in my opinion, probably the most overly focused on teaching in the Church. How many people really stop to think about its real purpose — guidance in helping us to take good care of our bodies. While it is true that there is not a single reference in it to obesity, Utahns are among the most obese people in the nation, and no one would ever think to question a morbidly obese Bishop with regards to whether or not he obeys the Word of Wisdom. How many of us have a diet that his high in whole grains, fruits and vegetables? How many of us limit our intake of meat? I’m totally with you on this. I think the Word of Wisdom is a fantastic “word of wisdom” and I believe we’ll be blessed with better health if we obey it than if we don’t. On other other hand, it’s because it is seen as such a quantifiable measurement of our obedience, I think we have fixated on it as a way of separating the “good” Mormons from the “bad” Mormons.
NotSure2008 wrote:Welcome to this forum Katz
You will know me as Dream Angel…
Its good to have you here…and to everyone else Katz is a very wise and knowledgeable lady!
Dream Angel!!!! Wow! It’s so good to see you here. I was just thinking about e-mailing you about this site, but then I got to wondering if this was where you got that article you posted about no one being normal.
Hi, Ophelia! I was really, really touched by your post. I honestly don’t know what I’d do if I were in your shoes. I’ve never had to deal with that. (I’ve “only” had to deal with my heterosexual kids living with their partners without being married. 
As a little bit of a side note, has anybody ever noticed that when the Bishop (or whoever happens to be conducting) says, “All those in favor may manifest it,” he generally looks out over the congregation as everyone raises his or her hand, but then when he says, “Any opposed may manifest it by the same sign,” he is generally looking down at his notes, checking on the next item of business or the next name on hist list of people to be sustained? Seriously, pay attention next time. It’s really almost funny. questioning89 wrote:So I was reading Mormon Doctrine and was reading talks by other leaders about the nature of God. Im not going to lie, I am very uncomfortable with the idea that God had a God, and that God had a God etc. I am very uncomfortable with the idea that God “became” God. I mean in my opinion it goes against the scriptures, and really no longer makes him the Almighty God. What do you guys think?
First of all, if it doesn’t sound right to you, dismiss it as a non-doctrinal teaching that may or may not be true and don’t lose any sleep over it. If this was official doctrine, we would be able to find it in the scriptures and not just in “Mormon Doctrine.” On the other hand, “Eternal Progression” is doctrine, which means that by the grace of God, we have been given the opportunity to become like Him. Using the same logic, but applying it in reverse, would lead us inevitably to the concept that God, too, became what He is because He too had a God that made it possible. It’s a doctrine that doesn’t bother me all that much, because I know that He is “the Almighty God” in terms of our relationship with Him. Remember, even Paul said that there are “gods many,” but then pointed out that to us there is only one God. What He may have been prior to when the clock started ticking is something that to me does not change what He is right now, and what He is right now is what really matters.
ams wrote:I just found this web site…
Me too! So that makes us both newbies.
Quote:One thing that is bad with the church is the feeling that you can’t oppose or question anything with out feeling like you would be ostracized.
Maybe that’s because you likely would be!
Quote:So one thing that I deal with is guilt. I grew up in the ultra mormon home, and I often wonder if the feelings I feel about my lack of testimony are the Holy Ghost telling me I need to change and dig deeper, try harder, or if it this underlying guilt from my childhood in my head, just knowing that my parents would be so dissappointed, and just think I was a terrible person if I left the church.
Guilt is my middle name. Fortunately, while I grew up in an active LDS household, my parents (particularly my father) really encouraged me to think for myself and to question things. Without having done that from a very early age, I don’t think I’d have survived the guilt.
Quote:My issuse with the church are
Temple Ceremony-I feel like the temple ceremony can be a good thing, and remind people to keep trying to do good things, but I think the symbols and signs are very much subject to Joseph Smith’s day. So even though I love the ideas of being married for eternity, I don’t really like the endownment session. Therefore I just don’t go. I keep a temple recommend, (even though sometimes I feel like I am lying to get it) but I have gone once in the last 5 years.
I was married in the temple 39 years ago. Let’s just say that my initial experience was not good. For the next couple of years, I made several goodfaith attempts to go through an endowment session (I never could bring myself to do any more washings and annointings), but finally just told my husband that I’d just had enough. I, too, kept a temple recommend for most of the years I never attended, which was somewhere around 22! I was just so uncomfortable, always nervous that I’d mess up and just had enough unpleasant experiences that it wasn’t worth the effort anymore. Then, about 17 years ago, a co-worker convinced me to give it another try. I did, and found that nothing had really changed all that much. This time, though, I decided that I was going to keep going, and try to overlook the negative aspects of the experience. Finally, today, I am to the point where I am able to tell myself that even though I don’t really have a deep testimony of what goes on in the temple, I need to be there. If someone were to ask me why I keep going, I guess I’d just have to say, “I know not, save the Lord has commanded me.”
Polygamy-that says it all doesn’t it?
You know, I just don’t give it all that much thought.
Quote:and Some of the JS history.
Here’s where I’d suggest you maybe look into some of the excellent apologetic websites available. They might not help you, but they just might. I know they did me.
Quote:Right now I am the YW 1st counselor (is it wrong for me to be in this position with all this doubt in my head?
No!
Quote:i often struggle to bear my testimony after lessons and stuff, because I am just not sure about it, so I choose my words wisely), and I enjoy my job, I have general satisfaction with the church, but with the doubts, I feel guilt like I lead a double life-the face I put on for ward members, and who I really am. Has anyone else dealt with the guilt issue? I would love to live the way that the essay said, but I want to be able to do it with out feeling so guilty all the time.
Well, speaking as one who has borne her testimony in Sacrament Meeting all of once in 50 years, what can I say? I have real problems with being asked to bear my testimony. To me, it’s not something we should be asked to do. We shouldn’t be expected to feel the Spirit on cue. I, too, am feeling like I live a double life and I too feel guilty. At least know what you’re not alone.
