[Kcarp]

No comment as to whether or not you should, I’ve learned a lot from other comments and will go read those links, but….

Word in the street is, new garments are coming. They will even involve cup sizes. Who woulda thunk

Any who… I still wear mine. I live in az. It is not pleasant right now. I always go to parks and zoos in non garment compatible clothes cuz… I don’t feel I have to. I used to think sacrificing to wear them in those conditions made me more faithful. Then up looked around, eventually I got past being judgement of those other moms who do the park, zoo etc in their tank tops, and joined then. I’m much happier. I also bought an evening dress that was not garment compatible for my husbands reunion. I felt great. I felt judged when a friend looked directly at my shoulders our whole conversation. But it didn’t bother me. I also sent the picture if the dress in me to an old coworker who I confided my faith crisis in (she is catholic) and she literally laughed at me and said it was very modest and didn’t know what I was talking about.

[Kcarp]

Joni,

I can’t believe I didn’t think of that before, but I think you are totally right. By being a supporter if john dehlin or Kate, the temple recommend will be up for negotiation. Maybe it won’t. It’s a wait and kind if thing, but I think you are right.

I’m always late to church and miss announcement, but do you think this will be addressed in one of those letters from the first presidency ( to be read aloud at the pulpit by a bishopric member)?

Also, I’ve kind of made a stink if this thing on my FB and got a lot if intolerant responses with ppl bearing their testimonies bug no one addressing the real issue. Either way, I like that I don’t feel like I’m in the closet any more. I also like that ppl have shared their doubts with me and supported me. Many past ward members expressed they wished they knew while we were all in the same ward to discuss further (Pittsburgh ward). And ya know, there’s so etching to be said about eastern minds and being more liberal, even if they are originally Utahns also to add, we all still attend church. But the point is, I think many if them view me as an apostate. I’m waiting to hear I’ve been released from my calling (as I’m around the young impressionable minds of the teenage girls) and get a call from the bishop.

This is what the announcement of the probable ex communications has ked me to believe: that I too will not be welcome and should be wondering if my standing in the church is up for reconsideration

[Kcarp]

I literally just talked to my husband about this possibility last night. I said john dehlin is safe though, because if they ex communicate him, all his followers and extensions of the mormon stories will all leave. Guess I was wrong. They are ready for it.

This really devastates me. I’ve been trying so hard to walk lines of loyalty to my new understanding and husband (just left a few months ago) and my entire upbringing in the church. I felt like the lady conference was the polar opposite of the conference session with uchdorf’s call to stay. I didn’t like the strict call to obedience to the members. I had been waiting for last conference to decide where I stood in terms if loyalty. I found out where I stood, but have been staying regardless. I go with my two toddlers by myself. I sit in class in silence because I can’t agree with what is being said. People like john dehlin have helped me at least kept going. Now, I don’t know.

[Kcarp]

I knew someone would have good answer(s)

Thanks!

Just one of those random curiosities.

[Kcarp]

Thank you nibbler, those are quotes I’ve seen before, and yes I’ve seen black and white photos that are allegedly Joseph smith’s seer stones. I’ve gleaned so many sites I can’t remember where I’ve seen it. I just looked on google but couldn’t get a hit in the image I saw before. I’m beginning to think it wasn’t so legit now… Lol

If I remember correctly, I dont think they were all Joseph’s? One was someone else’s? Kimball perhaps or Brigham? Now it’s going to bug me!

[Kcarp]

I share the same sentiment. I recently told a friend (previous coworker) about my FT and she was kind and caring and invited me to go with her. She is catholic her husband is non denominational. But I find the idea of going to another church very difficult. I think so much of our church is good and the right idea, but when you get I to the nitty gritty if it is when it goes awry. I so believed in the whitewashed version and loved it. But now that I’ve learned more details not available on Sunday, it has broken my heart.

I tried to not be offensive in telling her that I couldn’t believe some of the things other religions believed in. There’s no way a baby that died without baptism would go to hell being one of those.

But that’s the same with our religion. My mom would always say she would be our servant in heaven (my dad is not a member, therefore she isn’t sealed and can’t inherit the highest degree). I don’t think god would condemn you or hold you back from his blessings for so etching out of your control. I.e., if your husband chooses to never be baptized.

[Kcarp]

I feel like this is the hardest part for me right now. When I had my first faith crisis, I read Jesus the Christ for the first time and suddenly everything was a ok. Then, husband had his crisis, and now my crisis has been a lot more-more intellectual, more emotional (and not) hard to explain. I think that’s it’s easier considering the church isn’t true, or the only truth because I don’t feel like my marriage would fall apart if I left. Bit I keep coming back to Christ. I feel a testimony there. I can’t shake it. Other times I wonder if god exists.

I heard a quote that in the second coming ” every knee shall now and every tongue confess, that Jesus is the Christ”. I’ve always had that stick with me especially because when I heard it (at efy no less) the man teaching it suggested that it didn’t mean everyone would suddenly confess the mormon church was true, but rather, Christ would transcend a church organization. It comes down to good vs. evil in a way. I’ve felt a lot of peace come from this in my FT this time around.

God, should he exist, has purposefully hidden himself and because if this, faith is key. Because of this I don’t feel guilty that I can’t say “I know Christ lives” because he didn’t intend that I should be able to say that. I do hope he exists, and I hope he embodies everything good I believe to good. I hope it all does transcend us vs them thinking and that everything I view bad in this church becomes manifest. Most importantly, I think that should god exist, he won’t be so petty or vain to think that we disavowed his existence, so much as he will be happy to know we were good people and did good things, especially given the idea he did t provide us good, solid evidence that he exists. A rip in the veil if you will. We can come to know God regardless of if we literally believe in God.

Side not: I used to be so excited for the second coming. It was my favorite topic in the church. Maybe because it was all the prophecies of something supernatural in our very ordinary world. Now, I just don’t know. And oddly, right now, I’m ok with not knowing.

[Kcarp]

Thanks for sharing! That was the best thing I’ve read all day!

[Kcarp]

I remember learning in recent months that the church has possession if Joseph smiths seer stones, I had NO clue. I am very bothered by the notion of undisclosed information. Knowing that president hinckley bought the document(s)? From mark Hoffman true or untrue is bothersome in that they weren’t purchased with the intention for it to be published in some form or for the public to have access. I guess it’s idea that there is a monopoly on evidence. I understand preservation of historical documents, but why not let there be more accessibility? I guess I don’t know too much surrounding the Leonard Arrington era that I always hear referenced. But it sounds like fawn Brody was the first to really get access and publish (with bias). And then everything was closed off.

Ok, now I’m just rambling. Maybe my problem is I don’t understand all the context around church “vaults” and such, is there a good podcast or semi short (not a novel) article that can chronologically help me understand the circumstances? Or is someone willing to give a cliff notes version?

[Kcarp]

Yeah, I had never heard if it before (that doesn’t mean anything) but it seems like if it was really legit, it would be discussed more frequently in the bloggernacle world…

[Kcarp]

I’m very passionate about my detest for any sunshine song!!! It makes me want to shudder. Lol even as a Tbm my husband would always smirk when one was announced for the hymn bc he knew I hated it:)

[Kcarp]

I grew up in Arizona and my conventional Mormonism was challenged moving out east shortly after being married. A member of the bishopric didn’t wear a white shirt (GASP!) nor did all the young men passing the sacrament (I thought it was policy). We quickly came to love the unconventionalism. Not to mention a woman coming every steelers Sunday game day in her steelers jersey lol. Yes we were in Pittsburgh. But it was by living there I really learned the difference if separating culture from doctrine.

Also, in my singles ward, if a guy wore a colored shirt it was a sign of “don’t ask me to pass the sacrament because I can’t/won’t” but that was in Arizona…

[Kcarp]

It’s possible I interpreted in incorrectly but I’m pretty sure he was implying anti mormon as meaning anything not faith promoting. We are talking “rough stone rolling” as anti mormon.

[Kcarp]

It was just me and the bishop. My husband was leaving the church. I was for all intents a Tbm, but had a past faith crises which of course is back, more virulent than ever… Lol

[Kcarp]

I can see ordinances being an expression of commitment to a church just as you could have toward any organization (paying dues, attending meting etc) if you want to be a doctor you take the hypocritical oath, etc. but I dint think I see them as being necessary to salvation. Maybe baptism if Christ showed us that, but I haven’t crossed evidence of Christ saying “hey guys, see me? Goin in the temple for my endowment. Hey guys see me? I’m going into the temple to get sealed ( and for Joseph- this is a semi- jab… ) to my 36th wife.

Also, ir gets a bit confusing when you realize Joseph’s POV of the temple was the Masonic ritual was a corrupted version of what was truly practiced in Solomon’s temple.

I have seen the scripture in the bible referencing baptisms for the dead… And like I said, i can reason that Christ showedus baptism was the wat, so ok, I can see the potential need for baptisms for the dead. But in a way I feel like the heart of endowment covenants are already included in baptismal covenants.

Additionally, Christ was 12? In the temple teaching…I just had this view that the temple would have been more enlightening and teaching focused, not necessarily simply being a redundancy factory ( same ceremonies over and over). I hear stories of 80 year old men telling a youth, I think I’m just now starting to get it (the temple).

If that’s the case, why do we only go through it once for ourselves and what about those that geographically have only been able to attend once? They can’t do it for their kindred dead for 60 plus years to finally get it? Also, I understand raft working through complex issues is a greT teaching method, but I always heR the truths of the gospel are beautiful and simple. Just a paradox…

One of my husbands points was also: look at all the hours put in the temple? Do if it is just paperwork for the dead( how I view it) wouldn’t those hours be better spent serving people in our community with worthwhile causes like habitat for humanity etc?

I’m not trying to be a jerk and argumentative, just really trying to figure it out.

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