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Sounds like your friend is ripe to take a very hard fall, I would be very slow to share anything with him. If you do choose to share LDS history with him, I would limit it to sources that put a positive spin on it (like rough stone rolling) and let him interpret it. Growing up I always thought this would be hell. I didn’t particularly get along with my controlling, overbearing mother. Far from bringing me peace, the thought of living with her forever was not one I cherished as a child – or now for that matter. Your Bishop should have stayed out of it. If your son went to him seeking advice that’s one thing, he should have given his opinion and left it up to your son. You were honest and there is nothing wrong with that. Some day I’ll be doing the same thing with my children. Heber13 wrote:Kinderhook (or other StayLDSers) Why do you think the church allows such a gap between what is known “out there” and what is and is not taught to long time members like ourselves?
The apostles are not dumb (IMO), they are sucessful educators/scholars or lawyers or doctors or businessmen. You don’t get successful by burying your head in the sand and not addressing issues that impact you stakeholders (church members). So why isn’t their more knowledge on the subject given on polygamy?
In David O McKays day I think there can be more discretion on what to talk about because people have less resources to access information. It was the same with Politicians…they could sweep things under the rug. But now, Pres Obama has to address everything that people find out about because of the Internet, like the Harvard Professor and the white cop.
I think I’m ok with the practice of polygamy in the past, but I still get shocked learning new things. I just cling to the belief that truth will prevail, so I have no fear reading anything from any source.
I believe they don’t talk about it because of exactly what happened to me and others like me. They don’t want to rock the boat and the majority of people are never going to dig deep enough to find out about polyandry and other controversial aspects of their LDS faith. A few like myself stumble onto things like Mormon Stories and then our curiosity is peaked. We start to read from other sources and it all goes down hill from there. The sad thing is that my view of things may have been much different if I had been introduced to the idea by the Church itself in my religious studies in Institute or Church classes. Instead I have to interpret history the best I can from others work and am left wonder why the Church doesn’t explain itself. That latter part is huge because we tend to not talk about things we did wrong. By not discussing polyandry the LDS Church is essencially saying that JS was wrong to do it and now they are embarrassed by it. Personally I think it would be much much better if the Church simply acknowledged that it happened and discuss why. The tight lipped approach sets people up for a pretty big fall when they find out, IMHO.
Heber13 wrote:Regardless of what JS did after producing the BoM, it is still a miraculous thing. Did it [polyandry] change your view of that book?
Yes it did. I admit this is probably because I have been taught for so long that if JS wasn’t a prophet the BOM is a fraud and the LDS Church is too. So it’s hard for me to take the BOM seriously anymore. I haven’t gone back to read it again though. Perhaps if I did that I could at least look at it as inspired like many people do. Right now I can’t get past the fact that all the stories I was taught growing up are just stories and not real people. I guess if bugs me that it was presented as a real history when in fact it was not. Also, I think most of what is taught in the BOM is in the Bible and why not just go to the Bible to get the inspiring stories?
HiJolly wrote:
I”ll bet your leaders are not talking because they have no idea what to say to you.
You’re probably right. It’s the downfall of having a lay ministry, they don’t know any more than the average member.
HiJolly wrote:
In this forum, though, we more or less understand what you’re feeling. Keep talking to us, K08. We’re here for ya!I’ll bet you’ve got something to say to a guy like me, who knows about polyandry and Kinderhook and all sorts of stuff, and still believes that Joseph was a prophet. Let me have it!
HiJolly
Please tell me how you can still accept JS as a prophet. I really would like to but after a while I just couldn’t justify things anymore, too much circumstantial evidence to explain away.
swimordie wrote:@kinderhook:
I’m not a psychiatrist but I know what your condition is called: codependent…
You want to be validated and you want someone to acknowledge that you’ve been hurt. You want to MAKE someone, anyone, understand.
That could very well be. Thank you for your advise.
I know its true, but as you probably know its takes time to come to peace with the church’s skeletons. I guess I’m still finding my way through the process. Most days I’m fine but sometimes I feel so constrained I want leave and put some distance between me and the Church. Unfortunately that’s not possible for me to do. Thanks again, I’ll keep trying to reminding myself my opinion is the only one that matters.
I can kind of see where he is coming from. If you doubt or disbelieve the LDS faith you are far less likely to adhere to what the Church believes are doctrines and thus be disobedient. For example, if you no longer believe leaders speak for God why not have a drink on occasion, watch a rated R movie, shop on Sunday, skip out on church meetings, etc. What’s the point in being obedient to a faith that you no longer believe in? The fact that JS lied to Emma, the Church and the public are major problems but the think that started my doubting in the Church was polyandry. The concept blew me away. I couldn’t believe I had never been taught that it happened and the more I learned about it the more disturbed I became. The first time I learned about it was by listening to John Dehlin’s podcasts with Todd Compton. After the one on JS’s polyandry I literally couldn’t sleep at night. Everything came crashing down after that. As with most people I started to look into other “rumors” I had heard growing up and found many of them to not be the anti-Mormon trash I had been taught to believe they were. It is really sad that we aren’t more open when teaching about our history and unfortunate because it leads to members like myself who are either apathetic toward the Church or leave entirely. pinkpatent wrote:I also hope DW is doing ok…..
Thanks for your concern. I worry about her too. Despite our disagreements about church, I love her very much and would never want to cause her pain. I think she has become slightly more liberal (very slightly) because of her exposure to the things I have learned and passed on to her. However, she still refuses to let anything affect her testimony that the Church is true. Outwardly, she appears fine, but I know inwardly it causes her pain that she doesn’t feel she can share with me. It really bothers me that I can’t do anything to help her except regain my testimony and I know for now or in the near future that won’t happen. I don’t think I will ever be the same and I’m not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing for our marriage.
Quote:Does your wife know about FacesEast?
She does know about it. I guess she went there and someone told her that it only gets worse. They said their husband stopped believing, then started to drink, then started to do other things (I’m not sure what) and she got freaked out that I would do this also as time went on. I had to reassure her I still loved her and was not going to turn into some spawn of Satan. The short of it is it didn’t help her to go there. That may have been because she was still pretty hardcore TBM and was just getting used to the idea that her husband didn’t believe like her anymore, I don’t know.
My wife is well aware of my feelings. She is trying to be supportive. At some point, however, my kids will find out and I don’t intend on lying to them. I feel that they have a right to know why I don’t fully believe in the Church anymore. They have a right to know about the church’s history and decide for themselves if they want to stay in. I know if they leave it will kill my wife and that makes me so sad, but I just can’t feel responsible for my children being led on like I was. They are young now so I don’t really share hardly anything with them at this point and when I do it will be when appropriate. I don’t think it is helpful to dump everything on them at once, it certainly hasn’t been for me. Thanks for your kind words.
Honestly, I don’t know how I will deal with this in three years when my oldest boy gets to this point. I may insist that I sit in on the interview as I’ve heard some other have done, but I know that will brand me as someone that is difficult. I don’t really want my family to be treated differently just because I think the Bishop might be inappropriate. My wife also thinks masturbation is some horrible sin. I don’t think it is that big of a problem. Perhaps the best approach is to just talk to the kid before he goes into the interview just like you did. I can imagine that your wife let him know how horrible masturbation is and that he should never do it or he would have to go to the bishop and repent. My wife will do the same I’m sure. However, I plan on having a private talk with my son to explain it is not evil but natural. That if he does do it to not let it become an obsession and to keep it private. I’ll then inform him that he does not have to answer any questions about masturbation specifically and to consider himself morally clean if that is all he is doing. Hopefully this will help him to avoid the humiliating process of having to go to an older man (who most likely masturbated himself) and confess something that is so personal and irrelevant.
