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For me knowing how to set boundaries came too late as I was just becoming reactivated after more than 25 years and was being taught how to be obedient. I also was not aware of this site until after my crisis. I surely didn’t know people existed who had a mind of their own. I think I would have just quit the church if not for this community. I was asked two or three times to be in young men’s leadership (scouting, priesthood etc.). I told them I wouldn’t be able to do it along with the other things I was working on but they were persistent and I was told everything would work out. It didn’t. In fact it was ridiculous to think it could. I had a daily commute of an hour and 20 minutes after work and was at the peak of my continuing education effort with classes at a nearby JC three nights a week. After a couple of months the Scoutmaster quit to pursue his dream in law enforcement and it just became a disaster for me not being able to “magnify” or even dutifully fulfill my calling. I eventually dropped all classes and spent the next five years doing a poor job trying to keep up with activities and meetings along with my work schedule. By the time my son came home from his mission I was wrecked. That’s another thing I gave up, my son and I spent lots and lots of time together outdoors while he was growing up – camping, fishing and dirt bike racing. That whole life just vanished along with my financial and emotional investments. I never got any of it back. I became and still am really disenchanted with the institution and see everything and hear everything in a different light now. I am not “all in” and people can sense it and react accordingly. It’s a consistent awkward experience that I would rather not deal with but what do you do.
That’s pretty powerful, and hopeful. DarkJedi wrote:
My first impression as I was reading the original post was you needed to see a therapist. Then I got to the part where you said you had and they gave meds. I am not a psychologist and I didn’t sleep at a Holiday Inn but I do work closely with psychologists and psychiatrists. Meds while sometimes necessary and important mask psych symptoms, they don’t “cure.” Maybe a different therapist? One who doesn’t rely as much on meds?I do find some comfort in the atonement of Jesus Christ – the Christ who heals. But, it is more abstract than that in that I think the majority of the healing will take place after this life. I do believe healing can happen here and now but it doesn’t always (or even usually). In my darkest times I find a little comfort in one of my favorite quotes from a church leader. (Joseph Wirthlin, October 2006,
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2006/10/sunday-will-come?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2006/10/sunday-will-come?lang=eng Quote:I think of how dark that Friday was when Christ was lifted up on the cross.
On that terrible Friday the earth shook and grew dark. Frightful storms lashed at the earth.
Those evil men who sought His life rejoiced. Now that Jesus was no more, surely those who followed Him would disperse. On that day they stood triumphant.
On that day the veil of the temple was rent in twain.
Mary Magdalene and Mary, the mother of Jesus, were both overcome with grief and despair. The superb man they had loved and honored hung lifeless upon the cross.
On that Friday the Apostles were devastated. Jesus, their Savior—the man who had walked on water and raised the dead—was Himself at the mercy of wicked men. They watched helplessly as He was overcome by His enemies.
On that Friday the Savior of mankind was humiliated and bruised, abused and reviled.
It was a Friday filled with devastating, consuming sorrow that gnawed at the souls of those who loved and honored the Son of God.
I think that of all the days since the beginning of this world’s history, that Friday was the darkest.
But the doom of that day did not endure.
The despair did not linger because on Sunday, the resurrected Lord burst the bonds of death. He ascended from the grave and appeared gloriously triumphant as the Savior of all mankind.
And in an instant the eyes that had been filled with ever-flowing tears dried. The lips that had whispered prayers of distress and grief now filled the air with wondrous praise, for Jesus the Christ, the Son of the living God, stood before them as the firstfruits of the Resurrection, the proof that death is merely the beginning of a new and wondrous existence.
Each of us will have our own Fridays—those days when the universe itself seems shattered and the shards of our world lie littered about us in pieces. We all will experience those broken times when it seems we can never be put together again. We will all have our Fridays.
But I testify to you in the name of the One who conquered death—Sunday will come. In the darkness of our sorrow, Sunday will come.
No matter our desperation, no matter our grief, Sunday will come. In this life or the next, Sunday will come.
This gives me lots to think about Roy. As with SD’s comment it brings up another dark corner “that I can’t even get myself to feel forgiven for mistakes I’ve made” (I am haunted by past decisions and actions) “– what makes me feel forgiven is my own abstinence from the unChristlike behavior.” This could be an atonement application, maybe it is a rope to grab onto to pull me up out of the well if I stay persistent and don’t let go. I have tried to let go of the pain and resentment and letting go of grievances but this is where the church comes in. It’s the obstacle I can’t get over. It is there every Sunday and every General Conference when I’m faced with the institution who forced themselves on me at a time when I was rebuilding. Of course I let it happen but that’s what I was taught to do, be obedient. I know this has stopped my progress but I literally feel like I’m in somebody’s house (not God’s) who robbed me and they don’t care about my loss and I’m supposed to act, no not act, I’m supposed to continue on as if nothing happened. It’s made it really hard to trust their words and have faith.
Sorry if I strayed a little, I appreciate the generosity and time you all spent to share your insight. It has been helpful.
Roy wrote:
I agree with Cnsl1,The atonement is an amazing story. The God of the universe loves you enough to come and suffer a horrible death in order to overcome suffering, sin, and death for you. He declares with his actions that you are WORTHY of His love.
The atonement can also be a large source of comfort in making changes and not needing to answer for the person you used to be. You have grown and that’s not who/what you are anymore.
I also feel that the idea of the atonement can help as a tool to help let go of the pain and resentment from things that have been done against you in the past. It may be comforting to believe that God/Jesus know exactly your pain through the atonement. I personally find some comfort in believing that My god would not dismiss my pain or say that I was somehow selfish or shortsighted or not faithful enough in feeling my pain. My God will cry with me and then, maybe when the tears have subsided, He will help to heal my pains. There also may be some comfort in letting go of grievances – giving them over to God and believing that He will take care of it. I believe that healing from past trauma can only be attempted after boundaries and protections are put in place to prevent reoccurrence. Even then it can take a long time. Nobody should tell you that you shouldn’t feel how you feel.
All that being said, It sounds like there is more going on in your life and I am not sure that the atonement would be a panacea (or magic cure all) for those things.
AmyJ wrote:
hawkgrrrl wrote:
Nothing much to add other than a funny coffee thing. My daughter told me in high school that basically ALL the early morning seminary kids developed a post-seminary coffee habit to cope with the lack of sleep, which I found both funny and sad, but mostly funny.
My caffeine habit was developed originally to manage to stay up past my normal bedtime on Pathways nights:)
Coffee helps me out of my stupor of morning depression I normally wake up with. Emphasis on “helps” not cures,
I was just called along with DW to teach 11 year olds in Primary. Sister Jones’s talk was good for me, mostly. I usually tune her out but I picked up some useful points. Seems like she got that that perpetual grin under control. Thanks for all the help and input from this group. I think as I am not at church regularly my questions and oppositions to what I see and hear are minimized. There is not as much I feel I need help with but it will certainly return. Even so, I have some current topics I need help on. I’ll work out how to to express my thoughts and come back. We will welcome you back no questions asked. Therein is the problem I have with the church. When you can ask me about and acknowledge my problem and offer reconciliation we can talk. If you want to ignore my issue and disregard my feelings then my trust continues at the cautious level. Sorry, thinking out loud.
Sometimes I enjoy church on Sunday’s. I listen to people discuss or teach gospel principals and I’m impressed with the depth of knowledge and can feel what I percive to be spiritual witness. At those times I aknowledge it to myself. Sometimes I look around at people and compare with the secular world and think this is definately what I want to be part of. I see the alternate in decline, like people going over the falls and screaming with joy and want to be safe from that. Sometimes I listen to people talk, even from SLC and think these are well meaning good people really full of themselves and thier own interpretations and acknowledge to myself that I’m not buying that. My point is, for me, I go thru cycles and I accept that. Sometinmes I’ll contribute and feel part of, but sometimes I am being emotionally manipulated and stand firm but silent where I am unless somebody asks what I am thinking but that doesn’t happen much. I’ts not always easy and I’m not totally accepted but I go with it. Sometimes I will casually get up and walk out of a meeting trying not to be rude but it’s better than giving myself away with unplanned body language and expressions that may be disrespectful. I don’t know if putting yourself in my position helps at all, my point is I go thru cycles, ups and downs, and I don’t fight it. It may help that while I don’t believe God is active in every part of my life with promptings and revelations like I am compelled to believe, I do believe in the BoM and other scriptures. In fact I find them pretty amazing at times so I don’t have to be under cover in every aspect. In the long run I am in the right place. Discover for yourself if that is for you or not. Either way it may take time to be who you are. Roy wrote:This is taken form the talk. It is neat that it is a non-member example of being a witness of Christ. You could quote this and also reference ministering, charity and volunteer work, the Salvation Army soup kitchens, and the “Light the World” giving machines and initiatives the church has been promoting the last few Christmases.
This is great, I had some of that in mind to look around and see different witnesses who make a difference in the name of Christ. I will use Christmas themes, symbols and stories to bring it into season too. Something to wake up the youth too, like the end of the Polar Express. I actually carry a bell with me in my coat pocket that I can hear and it reminds me of the Holy Ghost being around.
SilentDawning wrote:
Leaders have used the old “This is something the Lord wants you to do” or “I feel inspired you should do…X” so many times I’m numb to it now. It’s what I believe that matters. It’s easy to just say the Lord wants you to do something to get you to do it. But believing that one statement can hurl you into circumstances that can be very hard to change. Sometimes it can be a calling that makes you frustrated and unhappy — you can just quit, but that hurts your reputation in the community. And the local leaders can take their SWEET time releasing you, while everyone thinks you’re still in the saddle.They can promise blessings but as Roy pointed out, are those blessings really theirs to promise? God bestows blessings, and his rules are, as one author pointed out, mysterious.
And this:
SilentDawning wrote:
… They have no accountability for the outcome. I would rather live in bad circumstances I chose willingnessly than circumstances born of bad advice from others.I will listen to advice from anywhere but leave it to me to make my final decision. For your sake, and mine.
Thank you for sharing that experience Curt, it helps me realize I need to try harder to “grin and bear it”. Especially considering the speaker volume in the foyer, there’s no escape except for leaving the building for a cool down lap. 😎 Before our current bishopric was put in place, going on five years now, our soon to be first counsellor gave a talk on tithing and I was doing my best to hide my facial expressions exposing my thoughts until he exclaimed that once you become a full tithe payer everything will be fine. I couldn’t take any more and got up, probably too abruptly, and exited. Nothing was ever said to me by DW or anybody else but I’m sure I used up some of my social capitol there. (I’ve just about used it all up since then).Roy wrote:We can make decisions that blow-up spectacularly. We all have a few doozies. But hopefully we can own our decisions and our privilege of self-determination. Church leaders need to staff the church. Sometimes they will say what they need to say in order to do so. When DW was pregnant and called into a high profile calling we had reservations. DW had experienced progressively worse post-partum depression with our other two children. Our bishop promised us blessings. Our child was stillborn, we almost left the church, and our marriage very nearly imploded.
I don’t mean to say that Church leaders making promises of divine favor are being deceitful. They really do believe that this is the Lord’s organization and that He will bless you in both seen and unseen ways for your dedicated service. I now believe that our bishop made promises on God’s behalf that he had no authority to make. To be fair to our bishop, we expressed our reservations in a way that surrendered our decision making power over to the bishop. We said essentially, “Bishop, here is some information you may not have been aware of. Do you still feel inspired to extend this demanding, stressful, and time consuming?” What was he supposed to say? “Oh never mind then, I did not realize that you had unseen challenges in you personal life. We will go back to the drawing board and give this calling to someone else.”
I am sorry for your struggle Kipper. Your feelings are valid. I hope that as you move forward you are able to somehow pick up the broken pieces and make the best of it. That particular educational opportunity may have sailed. At the same time, none of us are getting any younger and there may be opportunities in our lives today that we are not pursuing. There are opportunity costs to our every decision. Maybe those things we pursue will work out – maybe they won’t. But I hope from this point forward we can make those decisions based upon what we ourselves thought was best.
Roy I am so sorry you had to go through that unbelievable ordeal. I’m not so sure I could have emerged so well after that. I can’t even deal with mine. But you sure are able to offer some helpful input, some things I could take council.
First off I need to say you all are amazing and you deserve to hear it from me. I read your replies weeks ago but I just can’t quite figure myself out. I go back and forth from feeling lame and weak for allowing myself to be compelled, to a feeling of being taken advantage of my “reactivated” situation. This takes me from depression to anger and nothing in between. SilentDawning wrote:…It’s made me miserable most of my life. It underscores, again, boundaries, about making your own decisions based on your unique circumstances, considering church leader advice, but not letting it run your life. No one promoting decisions that you accept has any accountability for the circumstances such a decision leaves you in if it doesn’t work out.
SD I feel what you are dealing with. I feel that accountability would resolve this toxic situation but since that’s not going to happen do I really belong where my attitude trumps my progress? (Rhetorical)
