[Kipper]

Waking up this morning after a restless night I was able to feel some calm thanks to the words from you guys. I have feelings I can’t quite turn into thoughts which can be expressed but often I read them here. Some smart people here or at least talented at putting together meaningful responses. Thanks once again for being here.

[Kipper]

Old Timer wrote:

Exactly.

When the Sabbath becomes more important than people, it has lost its meaning. The same is true of the garment. It should serve us; we shouldn’t be burdened by legalistic rules about its use. “Wear it throughout your life, and don’t defile it,” is good enough.

:thumbup: :thumbup:

[Kipper]

My gosh, the information I get here is so insightful, or maybe I’m so isolated that I just don’t find reasonable input from anywhere else. The new posts this morning were especially helpful. And it’s not that I am being changed by anyone’s opinions I’m just able to see myself and my own thoughts clearly and feel validated. Thank you all for being so willing to share and being honest with your thoughts and helping me understand myself and my needs. Being isolated with my thoughts and questions makes me feel like something is wrong with me. Bottom line is I do feel worthy.

[Kipper]

All good comments, thank you. Interesting how the words every day and every night got in there, I have suffered from severe heat rashes due to sweat and garments sticking to my skin in the shop at work and I feel confused about not taking your shirt off in the yard. There are things I just would not be able to do with wearing insulation under my clothing like my extreme bicycle rides. I don’t know how farmers can do it. I will be attending the temple before I go to the SP interview since I haven’t expired yet so I’ll be able to get a better feel for my understanding and direct answers. Interesting about Carthage Jail. Thanks again for all the insight.

[Kipper]

Mordimor wrote:

…When or if we have another discussion with a different bishop it could be hard and it could cause us to leave. We will get there when/if it happens. Proceed with caution.

I don’t feel real confident in our bishop’s understanding, I guess that’s why I have been putting off having a talk. Doesn’t make it much easier for me living inside my own head. A while back in ward council we were talking about our responsibilities to those in the ward who are less active and how we need to get them to accept callings and please come back because we need you . I mentioned we also need to know them, know what their issues are, why they are not coming or not accepting callings and try to work through with them. My bishop looked away and said I don’t know who that would be…maybe the stake prez…I don’t have that kind of time.

After all these years in my FC I have concluded that the church as a whole is not structured to help with individual spiritual needs and repairing damages outside of “I’ll join you in a special fast and prayer”.

[Kipper]

Rumin8 wrote:

Just wanted to check in and say from one struggling ward clerk to another, I salute you. Hang in there!

Thank you, you 2. I have some things drafted and will be back soon.

[Kipper]

Thanks MM, appreciate the suggestions.

Minyan Man wrote:

Are you willing to accept another calling in the Church? It is easier for the Bishop to accept your release if you can suggest other callings where

you are willing to serve. If yes, I have a suggestion.

I really like be the Family History Coordinator. For the following reasons:

– There is very little oversight. No ward meetings. I can say no to the Stake training meetings.

– There are no meetings with the Bishop & Ward counsel.

– There are very few talks or presentations to make.

– I usually work by myself. Usually at home & set my own schedule.

– If I train someone, it is one on one with no set lesson plan. It can be done at church after the meetings.

– Members are really grateful when you solve a problem for them. It breaks the ice for future social interaction.

– It lets me do my own family history under the guise of being active in specific calling.

– It is fun to show my family something new I’ve discovered about our family.

– Periodically you can go with the youth to do Baptisms & Confirmations in the Temple, if you so desire.

What I’m trying to say is: there are options. This is just one.

I’m sure there are others on this forum that can help make suggestions too.

[Kipper]

Amazing SD. Not just that you hear me and got you summary right but that you devoted much of your time and energy to researching and understanding my issue as well as offering strategies and advice. Not sure I deserve all this but it is definitely critical to my going forward. I’ll concentrate on enjoying my fathers day and thinking about my next steps for a few days then check back in here. Thanks.

SilentDawning wrote:

I read through the viewtopic you gave — that helped.

If I were to summarize your concerns.

1. You sort of resent all the time invested in callings you haven’t wanted lately. You find leaders are persistent in asking you to do callings you don’t want (they asked 3 times in one case).

2. You feel that all the time you put into the YM calling distracted you from your aviation dream when you were so close and had spent so much on pursuing that dream.

3. You have regrets that church callings have interfered with setting a good example to your son. Time invested in church callings detracted from achieving something significant.

4. You also feel a bit duped by local leaders who, in acting in the belief they are part of an inspired, holy institution, really didn’t know what was best for you, when you thought perhaps they did at one time. But then you found they weren’t correct, hence the sense of betrayal. So this has led to outcomes 2 and 3 in this list.

5. You feel the window has closed for pursuing the aviation dream and setting a good example for your son, which causes a certain amount of anxiety and a case of the blues.

6. You talked to your HPGL and he resorted to the standard read and pray, and then cited Satan’s influence (unhelpful in my view).

7. The Bishopric seems not to attach any weight to your input in Bishopric meeting.

If I have this right, then for me, much of this can be resolved with boundaries. Here are some things to consider:

1. This could mean asking for a release from your calling. I think a calling that distances you from your leaders might be helpful, as they are partly the source of your angst. You will need to craft a good reason for it. We can help, I am sure.

2. When getting released, have an idea of where you want to serve and share it. Refuse callings as often as you need to — until they get it right.

3. You will have to throw away an value you attach to your reputation in the Ward. After you cross that line, everything gets a lot easier, believe me. In your case, the position is lower profile that you hold, so I don’t consider this a major sacrifice — in my case I was the HPGL.

4. Find new achievements that set the example for your son. You can decide what those achievements are — perhaps progression in your own career? Service in the community regarding a mission you absolutely love? I will confess — service in the community is MUCH easier than in the church. You can do it on your own terms, you can quit when it’s too much, and you have far more interesting opportunities to serve.

I hope I have the summary of your issues correct. Again, I suggest NOT sharing anything with local leaders. Talk here and create your strategy, which includes how you will manage the local people. They can make your life difficult if you are too open about your true feelings — and the pablum you get, as you did from your HPGL a few years ago, isn’t helpful. Remember, they are not counselors, and they are limited in what they can say or even empathize with. They aren’t a fertile place to go in these situations, believe me. Better to talk to people on StaYLDS who understand the kind of distance you are feeling and be completely honest about it. And there are no consequences for you at all, as we don’t know who your local leaders are, and wouldn’t run to them even if we knew.

Good luck — please let me know if I got the list of concerns right and if I missed any.

[Kipper]

SilentDawning wrote:

I don’t feel that I fully understand the issues clearly in this case. You would like out of your calling, but there are also issues with past mistakes, career development, and supporting your family. You would like to talk to local leaders, but we all know that is a dead end, potentially harmful to your situation, and not advised….but I am not sure how it all ties together….if you care to explain it more clearly, that might help with giving an informed opinion.

Sorry about being unclear, I don’t have any desire to be out of my current calling as Ward Clerk. I just feel as if my heart is not in it however I can perform my duties I need to. The next calling, whatever it may be is what I am concerned about because I feel more like stepping back than progressing. Also, my input at bishopric meetings use to be valued but is now dismissed more often than not. I was asked to give a talk on tithing about a year ago and I turned it down and haven’t been approached since. I think they sense my lack of commitment but don’t care why. There is a reason why and I am going to be honest about it. Come what may.

I am not having gospel issues and church history is something I can suppress without frustration at least for now. What I can’t deal with is what I am going through in my personal life, the results of being compelled as a newly activated member all those years ago to serve in a calling that knocked me right out of my pursuit to better myself, finish my degree, fulfill a life long dream in aviation, used up ten’s of thousands of dollars on the way and more but I realize I am getting a little hot inside and spouting more than I really need to. I don’t trust anyone who doesn’t want to be honest with me and I internally question everything any leader preaches about. It isn’t getting any better by just keeping everything in my head.

Some of the details can be found here.

http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8732

[Kipper]

SilentDawning wrote:

It sounds like it’s the tension between what people are expecting of you, and what you are/believe that bothers you. Am I correct?

Not exactly SD. Well, kind of but it is past tense. My beliefs are not the obstacle, I’ll never deny the witnesses I have had but I am asked to deny my own personal revelation. I was given, and accepted a calling knowing that I was in the middle of reconciling some of my past mistakes in life (it was time) the best I could by completing my degree, not for bragging rights but to give me stability at the end of my career and also open up new opportunities. Neither of those things happened. I was compelled to believe that you don’t turn down a calling and this one was important. They just weren’t going to hear me and understand my needs. I live with my past mistakes now instead of my accomplishments. My unemployment and financial outlook is pretty bad. The straw that is breaking my emotional back is that I can’t provide financial assistance to my son for a trade school he needs to start his career and provide for his young family. Details aren’t important here but we haven’t found a solution for that yet and if we don’t I’ll have a hard time living with that. This has changed the trajectory of my life path and continues to be problematic.

I can’t continue to pretend as if this didn’t happen and everything is moving along happily. I’m not happy with what took place and I am not going to keep this inside for the rest of my days. I will explain that as amicably as I possibly can. If I could leave it would be liberating but the consequences are to great. In a way I’m letting people down by my substandard participation and contributions and they deserve to know why. It’s not just a matter of getting it off my chest, it has to do with being honest and looking for some honesty in return. I don’t know what to expect or what my explanation will turn into but either way I am going to be truthful. I’m not sure I will receive the same.

[Kipper]

Roy wrote:

…It sounds like you may need to unload or have a “come to Jesus” talk. When I talk to the bishop I hope to reveal just enough to avoid having to meet with the bishop again for the next six months to a year. I deduce that maybe the inauthenticity of being an unorthodox member is driving you crazy and you wish to go in and “come out of the closet” so to speak. Am I off base here or is this what you are looking for?

This is pretty close Roy, I am being an underachiever and I don’t like it. I have to go again, more later. Thanks so far everyone.

[Kipper]

I’m sorry I wasn’t clear, if only to myself . I’m asking why is it said to us that baptism for the dead is the only way for the dead to be saved? Surely not everyone thru time who died and not heard the gospel is going to be bound by chains of death and hell unless that ordinance is performed for them. There’s no way to account for them all. And, what about those who have died and heard gospel, why do we perform the ordnance for for them? Not saying I don’t believe any of this, it just doesn’t make sense just like many other doctrine I am taught and don’t ask about. That said, shortly after I received my own endowment and TR I was with the youth who were being baptised for the dead and I was doing the confirmations and had an undeniable spiritual experience with every name I announced and confirmed. Thank you for asking for clarity, hope that helped.

[Kipper]

LookingHard wrote:

I would say the bigger issue for me is the reaction of members, especially top leaders, to my doubts. I still do attend, but mainly for my wife’s sake.

Although I wouldn’t say that I have doubts as I feel I have conclusions (which can be wrong and can change).

This is pretty close to describing me. I thought I was at peace once my doubts became conclusions but recently it has become harder than ever to feel calm and at peace, in fact I no longer feel as if belong in the “group” and I don’t have the emotional strength to deal with it. I have a deep wound and it’s from an institution that does not have the source of my feelings on their radar. I think that would require a lot of self reflection on their part and that is just not an option. Therefore we will remain at unspoken odds without any possible reconciliation for the future that I can see. It really is not enjoyable to be here any more. It’s like being in a group that you are not really part of.

EDIT:

Did I hijack? Moderators do whatever you need, sorry. I have crafted several posts only to safe as drafts because I question if they are appropriate. This was just an emotional reaction after reading through this thread, although not isolated to this thread.

[Kipper]

DarkJedi wrote:

Roy wrote:

Hi Kipper,

However you calculate tithing I believe that this should not be dissected in front of your bishop.

I also would be hesitant to meet with the bishop with a spouse that I felt might contradict what I am saying.

In my situation, how I present myself before the bishop is intentionally crafted to keep my options open. It would be extremely frustrating as well as potentially doing lasting damage for that spouse to undercut my message in real time before the bishop.

In summary, I do not believe there are any winners when a couple has a doctrinal disagreement in front of a church leader.

I would agree. My wife believes in paying on nearly gross (it’s OK not to pay on Social Security or retirement deductions because you’ll pay on that later when you potentially get more than you put in), I believe in paying on net. I do the paying of tithing, so I pay on net for me and her version of gross for her. In TR interviews (since I don’t go to tithing settlement and neither does she) I answer the question “yes.” I have never given any explanation to the bishop about how I determine what I pay, I simply answer the yes or no question.

Those are smart approaches, it would have been good for me to have thought ahead of time but it was actually spontaneous. Unfortunately I am way out of the dominant role in this relationship. Damage is done.

[Kipper]

Arrakeen wrote:

-We need to stop treating people with doubts as if they had a contagious disease.

-Someone suggested that we should spend as much time with those with doubts or different beliefs as we do with “faithful members”.

-Stereotyping those who doubt or leave the faith is a mental shortcut that leads to discrimination. When we instead take the time to get to know someone, we understand they have reasons for what they do and believe.

Interesting to come across this thread after my day yesterday where I came home with the feeling of not knowing anybody at church. With a few exceptions it’s like people steer clear of my presence. I know I don’t have the enthusiasm I once had, I guess it shows. As my crisis has evolved so has the reaction from my friends and ward members. Warmth is so conditional.

Arrakeen wrote:

I must say, this is the first time since my faith crisis that I haven’t felt completely ostracized. It gives me a lot of hope to see things like this discussed openly at church. I hope that this becomes part of a general trend towards a more accepting church culture.

I wouldn’t hold out hope on this becoming a trend, nothing starts at the bottom at church. It amazes me that there are wards where this type of discussion could take place, I just can’t imagine it happening where I am. My experience tells me people who are going through tough times spiritually or having a true faith crisis are seen as out of form and just need to come around. There are no legitimate issues that could induce the anxiety and stress we (I) feel. It has really become difficult to be.

[Author]

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