[Kipper]

DarkJedi wrote:

Other than not really believing there are chosen people, the problem I have with us being said chosen people is that it so often leads to pridefulness among some of us. While not always explicitly stated (but it is sometimes explicitly stated) I often hear that we are better than our Christian brothers and sisters (or any other religion) because we are chosen or we are members of the “true church.” That is the bad kind of pride.

The other issue I have is the prosperity gospel aspect of being chosen, and what it leads to when people figure it out.

This was a great reply to follow Old-Timer who talked about what it means to be chosen. I realize my issue is not the understanding who are chosen and why so much as proclaiming it. It sounds prideful and I think history shows it could lead to bad things. Just my opinion, with a better understanding of all this and my own feelings I can respond with a cautionary tone when I hear or see this happening.

[Kipper]

My sidewalk has been cracked slowly but surely by church indoctrination. Oaks seems like a walking analogy machine. Maybe I should stop until I have something positive to contribute.

[Kipper]

I am far less than enthusiastic about this. There seemed to be too much creative doctorin in EQ. But then maybe that why the combining. And I finally stopped hearing every othercomment begin with “when I was on my mission…”. Maybe because I didn’t serve and it’s a repetitive reminder.

Just my unpopular opinion.

[Kipper]

SilentDawning wrote:

I just wanted to share. Have you ever had those plumb moments when you get to share your complete thoughts with someone who is a member, without risk of any consequences from the formal establishment? How did it go? I am not talking about anti-Mormon thoughts, but simply about face to face sharing of your true thoughts and feelings, even though they are not mainstream.

Thanks for this post SD, almost as if you were asking me personally. I’m guessing that type of person is a pretty rare find. I had a very good friend, still very active, who I could go back and forth with, with mostly like minded dialog but haven’t met anyone else since. He was once a bishops counselor and would often tap into some of his upper resources to answer questions we both had. My crisis originated from a time when I was given a calling that took me out of my pursuit of life’s opportunity to fulfill a dream and strive for my own “divine” potential. It is a fork in the road I didn’t choose but was compelled to follow. Unfortunately for me, this friend completely backed off and never gets close enough to have a discussion let alone a friendly conversation. Seriously, thank god for this site.

As for authenticity, for me it is sometimes unbearably difficult to go thru my Sunday meetings and have no opportunity to question or respond to lesson bullets. I sometimes feel confused and bitter but when I settle down I realize I am fortunate to understand and know what I now know. Even if nobody is willing to step into that part of my world.

[Kipper]

Roy wrote:

Kipper wrote:

I mentioned I was concerned about the time involved but was told it will all work out and I would have many blessings poured on me. Don’t think I buy that any more, I’ve had plenty of blessings denied due to callings taking me away from my personnel time.

DW and I had a bad experience where DW was pregnant and was asked to be primary president. We were concerned that DW typically suffers from post partum depression after childbirth. We were assured that the blessings would pour forth and that the counselors would carry the burden while DW was out of commission. Our baby was stillborn and DW and I entered the darkest part of our lives – it nearly broke us. We both stopped going to church for a long time.

Lessons:

1) I had thought that if I let the bishop know my concerns and the call was still extended then that was what God wanted. “Give him all the information so that he can make an informed/inspired decision”. I now feel that by sharing the concerns but not being firm, I was inviting the bishop to talk DW and I into the calling. Nobody knows better than me and my family what my personal situation is. I need to take ownership for family decisions and not give this responsibility to others. I will make mistakes, but they will be MY mistakes.

2) I strongly believe that we were not blessed as a result of DW serving as PP (I do recognize that there are some ways to look at anything including hardship as a blessing in a “that which does not kill me makes me stronger” sort of way. That is not my view point.). I believe that the bishop had no right to make promises in God’s behalf. However in making those promises, he was really just doing what everybody at church does. He probably did not even see it as a personal promise but rather a statement of fact as in Mosiah 2.

Quote:

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever

The bishop in my case probably could not fathom that God would not “immediately bless” us for our service. I can see bishop through a charitable lens and hope that others will view my unintended errors in the same way.

OMGosh Roy, that’s hard to fathom. I am not as eloquent with descriptions but #2 really expresses my thoughts. Some good things to learn from your reply, thanks.

[Kipper]

DarkJedi wrote:

The financial part is the biggest part IMO. It is better with online tithing these days, but there are still plenty of people who hand in the envelopes, and that needs to be counted, entered into the computer, and deposited each Sunday. It takes two to count (a bishopric member helps) and nowadays two have to go to the bank. And come tithing settlement time there are lots of things to do with printing off statements, etc. Most membership stuff can wait or be done on a day other than Sunday.

Thanks DJ. I’m not really comfortable knowing about others tithing status or financial relationship at church but I’ll treat it accordingly and do what I need to.

[Kipper]

DarkJedi wrote:

So, to answer your question, the clerk attends all the meetings the bishop attends, supervises the asst. clerks (and fills in as necessary, especially financial), and does whatever other meeting related stuff the bishop wants. The clerk is responsible for monthly reports (like financial) but good assistants are probably taking care of those.

This is what I suspect after talking about it to others in the ward. We do have an Executive Secretary to make appointments for the bishop and I think we either have or there was talk about a financial clerk.

[Kipper]

LookingHard wrote:

Kipper wrote:

was told it will all work out and I would have many blessings poured on me. Don’t think I buy that any more, I’ve had plenty of blessings denied due to callings taking me away from my personnel time.

And I am also sure my father’s life was decreased when he was bishop late in life in a really needy ward made up of mainly somewhat run down apartments. His health started really going downhill, but he didn’t have time to take better care of himself. He would often vent to me just how “pissed” (his words, which were nearly a curseword for him) he was at the jerk of a SP he had to deal with.

Kind of makes me mad thinking about it.

OK – I need to go do something to get me in a better mood!

I’m really sorry to hear that about your father. About yourself too. I also place high priority on regular exercise and had been too busy with YM calling for several years (awhile back) to stick with it. It will never be acknowledged though.

[Kipper]

Beefster wrote:

For me, faith is a willingness to act despite uncertainty. It’s not about “knowing” or believing. There is some hope involved- that your actions will lead to something good.

Good post sir/mam. I have been taught that faith in a commandment is following a commandment believing that a reward will follow before having any certainty. For what it’s worth.

[Kipper]

How about faith as it relates specifically to commandants? That was the question in GD today. I gave an example where I don’t have faith. I discretely left class before tithing came up. WoW?

[Kipper]

nibbler wrote:

Thanks for the update.

I’m guessing the call with the SP1C was about extending the ward clerk calling (since that calling is one extended by the stake).

The silver lining of extending a new calling to you is that they still want you to be a part of the spiritual community. My head would be racing if I had a talk like that with the HPGL and shortly thereafter I was released with no other calling offered. Sometimes people with issues can become the ward pariah.

And it’s a calling that still has a “seat at the table.” Meaning a calling that attends local leadership meetings and where you are theoretically free to give your input.

The last thing I was thinking was a new calling, especially since I had a call from SP1C and HPGL within 5 minutes of each other. Yes, this calling keeps me close and valued. I suspect there is no clue what I am going through and they continue to keep stepping me up.

My problem will always be the church isn’t a place to come worship, it’s a place to take care of administrative duties and also I don’t believe in the divine conduit they keep telling me about.

[Kipper]

I was called as Ward Clerk tonight and will be released as SSP. Lots of mixed feelings.

[Kipper]

All, I should have kept you up to date right after my meeting. That’s inconsiderate considering all the support I get here. It takes me so long to write a paragraph that I never seem to have the time to start but I do apologize. Right not I’m at work at the end of the day so forgive me if it doesn’t look like I did a proof read because I didn’t.

I did meet with HPGL and the first thing I told him is that I have a testimony of the restoration. I also told him that this was not to be considered a confidential meeting meaning he was free to share whatever we talked about with other leaders.

The impact of my hurt or anger stems from the fact that the window of opportunity has closed. I know it’s common encouragement to say it’s not to late and I won’t go into details but basically I can’t afford it, I don’t have the time and my age is now a factor meaning I should be experienced by now, not just starting out when I am ready to retire.

I tried not to let too much out but I did say that I was really angry at the church as an institution and I made it clear that my current leaders at the time were doing what they felt was right by the church. I wanted him to know that I squirm sometimes when people say things whether it be in HP meeting or general conference. I told him who I appealed to at the time (high council, former bishop, current bishop and more) and that the responses were always “it will work out” and “we prayed and your name kept coming up” and most importantly how it was a calling right from God himself. The talk went on for an hour 20 minutes so you can be sure there was more. I also talked about some of my earlier years when I was pretty self destructive. It was very friendly, not a bit hostile or like a warning or anything. Of course I was asked if I was reading scriptures and praying always and I answered honestly that not so much any more. Satan’s influence was brought up. He offered to fast with me and I said sometime in the future because I’m not going to do something that will make others feel better while I try to reconcile this.

That’s all I have time for, I’m sorry I can’t go now but I am on OT now.

I can’t close without adding that I just received a personal call from the SP first councilor asking to meet him tonight. Not five minutes later I got a call from HPGL just to say hi and ask how I was. I am NOT going to let myself be compelled like a primary child. What happened, happened. Facts are facts.

More later, I promise. Hope others who are in similar situations can get help from these replies somehow.

[Kipper]

Thank you Heber13. your comments are both understanding and instructional.

[Kipper]

Wow, I do sound bitter.

[Author]

Posts