[Kipper]

So sorry to disappoint but I turned down the assignment today. I wasn’t sure until the last minute. Today the 2nd counselor asked me formally to talk in a few weeks and handed me a sheet with the topic “Tithing”. I freaked out and I said honestly I cannot talk about something I can’t testify to. I’m sure it would be obvious. He was visibly taken back but said OK.

Later in the evening I got a call from the secretary asking me to meet the bishop Tuesday night. He is new as of about a month ago and a very humble man, never the less I have a lot on my plate I need to talk about. I may start a new thread because some of it I have brought up here and I will surely need some advice on my approach.

[Kipper]

Heber13 wrote:

amateurparent wrote:

Lots of people have a tough time being at church. Talk about THAT.

Years ago, I handed out 3×5 cards in RS and asked everyone to write down why they came to church. I wanted honest answers. Then I read them to the group. Only one card said “for the lessons”. Every other card was for the companionship. To see my friends. To meet people who share my beliefs. To be surrounded by others who care. Etc. Every person — except one — showed up to interact with people.

People are starving for social acceptance. They don’t find it in our media. They hope to find it at church. Too often, they leave feeling beat up.

I’m super interested in this topic right now, AP.

Why does the church work for some and why does it not for some?

If they don’t feel people share their beliefs, or they feel no connection…is there any reason to be there? (Not a rhetorical question…I’m interested in what people think about what there is for us if we feel we don’t fit in with what we hear being said at church?)

I think too many varied opinions are kept silent…and so…people only think what is said out loud is what everyone else must be thinking…and are a bit surprised when a piccolo makes it’s sound amid the orchestra (to refer to that orchestra analogy again). Should the piccolos join in, or just stay quiet longer? What makes it worth it to try to find social acceptance? How many times would they be accepted if they just tried…instead of assuming they don’t fit in based on internal assumptions?

Not too may people (outside this forum) are interested in why church works for some and not for others. It usually turns into a “Personal Apostasy” answer. It always ends with the comment that people stop reading scripture, stop praying, start hiding a sin etc then fall away. There is never a thought about an unresolved issue that pushes someone into doubt.

[Kipper]

amateurparent wrote:

Kipper:

If we were all together, we would be banging cups on the table and yelling “SPEECH” at you.

In two weeks, return and report!

Hey.. Isn’t that Thanksgiving weekend??

Yes it is Thanksgiving weekend. They first asked me to speak on the 22nd but I will be at a seminar that weekend. I thought about it all day today while doing a 12 hour chore (I am out of work right now) and still don’t feel too excited about speaking although I am listening here. My problem is that I am not going to be able to project a “spiritual countenance” or even prepare with a spiritual feeling meaning I will be preparing a presentation rather than an uplifting talk. There is not yet a topic. Maybe I could refine the Temporal and Spiritual Well Being lesson in my OP. I am just having a real problem with even being at church right now.

[Kipper]

Heber13 wrote:

For me, the main message I was inspired by Pres Uchtdorf was to simplify the gospel, and not get tangled in the mountains of sediment that build up over time with programs and good ideas which weigh us down and smother our spirits.

Simplify. Live the gospel. Find goodness and live it.

He called for leaders to not burden families, and families to focus on what they need to be happy.

That is a beautiful message.

…even if I believe that can be done by research on the Internet to verify leaders’ messages to me and my family.

When I listen again I’m going to listen for that message. About six years ago that could have helped me be in a better place than I am now.

[Kipper]

Thanks for the replies. It seems to me to be a self validation attempt but then I have been more skeptical about teachers recently.

[Kipper]

Quote:

We cannot duplicate your distinct [strengths].

I forgot exactly what he said but this is more of a respect for individual attributes rather than an us and them talk. I felt good about it.

[Kipper]

nibbler wrote:

TataniaAvalon wrote:

I’m seriously disappointed by Pres. Uchdorft’s first talk. Maybe others here will enjoy it but I don’t. Seems like a syrup back for him

Yeah, same here.

How is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints working for you? For many it’s not. What do they do? Simplify. Do a bishop or EQP/RSP allow someone to keep it simple by opting out of one of the many church programs? Is that a comfortable option we make available for people?

Good points, the answer is no, the answer is obedience. Wish I didn’t have to say the Church is not working for me.

[Kipper]

I was tentative about Uchdtorfts talk at first but by the end I felt well about it with the exception that I am not the one who needs to simplify, the Church is. I continue to profess that I can’t see the forest for the trees. It is a major obstacle for me.

[Kipper]

As I read thru paragraphs one and two I was thinking ahead and then read paragraphs three and four and that was just what I was thinking. Interesting how we can mislead ourselves about the church and the church can also mislead us about ourselves.

[Kipper]

amateurparent wrote:

Kipper:

I am always so envious of missionary returns. When I think of a reunion with a missionary, I think of what it would be like to see my kids again. It literally takes my breath away.

Enjoy every minute! Hug him hard. Repeat as needed.

Thanks. Lots of his friends are over now. It’s great to hear his laugh.

[Kipper]

DarkJedi wrote:

From my point of view it actually has gone by rather quickly. But, as I said in the other thread, the last few months have seemed to slow down significantly and I have really started to miss him more so of late. MY TBM wife will play into the into the “didn’t it fly by?” stuff enough for both of us, I’ll likely stand there silently as usual. In her absence I am likely to disavow that I thought it went quickly – but I also view it as them asking for it. As people here know, I can be pretty blunt and forthright sometimes. :problem: :lolno: Such is also the case in person.

And I’ll be tracking on Flightaware, too. I’m such a geek sometimes. :ugeek:

Hope you enjoy the reunion as much as I did today. I’m sure you will.

[Kipper]

youngadult22 wrote:

I guess my ward is a week behind because we just had this lesson. My teacher went straight from the manual which drove me crazy and even more frustrating, OW and the any opposed group were mentioned and criticised during the lesson which I think took the spirit away from the meeting. When this quote is brought up (because it has been brought up 3 times in the last 2 weeks in my ward) what do you say? I wanted to say something so badly but I didn’t know what. It think it’s because I still haven’t figured out a comfortable balance between following the prophet and personal revelation. Or is it best just not to say anything at all?

You need to understand Ray’s advice about individual situations but also develop a way to validate what is being said before it makes you nuts.

[Kipper]

SilentDawning wrote:

I once shared this concept of blind obedience to my Bishop. First, he’d never heard it, and second, he said he didn’t agree with it.

I sent an email to my bishop about this because it is close to being a deal breaker to me, not by itself but one of the proverbial straws that broke the camels back. I also thought it to be unfair for me to gain understanding only from forums like this one although this is the only place where conversation can be run to finalization. He replied that we need to meet and discuss soon, many of these questions and assumptions are not accurate. It makes me feel hopeful.

SilentDawning wrote:

Also, there is a principle I have applied that has helped me StayLDS, and this story is at the heart of it — elevate nothing above your conscience — not doctrine, not the church, not its leaders. I find I am much more at peace when I am the captain of my soul — not some church leader that doesn’t know my situation, my life, my trials, and my capabilities, or my own sense of morality.

Ok if I adopt that principal in my own life?

SilentDawning wrote:

I hope that if I was a Mormon at the MMM, I would have objected to the massacre order and refused to kill the person I was assigned to.

It is very disturbing to me to follow blindly precisely because of this and other incidents like this. Another example is the Willie Handcart Company where(IMO) many were told to do something wrong but it was not morally wrong and they did it anyway. This I think captures Heber J. Grant’s quote more accurately. Some were blessed, some were not. I am pretty sure this would have been a deal breaker for me and I would have stayed behind. Of course I was not there and don’t know for sure if the consequences of staying behind were more risky than going.

[Kipper]

NightSG wrote:

Kipper wrote:

How does it benefit the individual to do something he knows is wrong? What is power of discernment for? What about free agency used for doing what’s right? What the heck are we teaching and going along with? Every time I go to HP meeting, half way through the embellishment begins. I am really close to opting out completely.

This is interesting, considering that three different bishops and a SP have never asked me to do anything major without the comment that I should go home and pray about it…

This is a very important piece of our personal responsibility to ourselves.

NightSG wrote:

…the fallible men in these positions sometimes act without clear guidance, and use their own judgment, which, while hopefully always benevolent and well thought out, is sometimes still going to be wrong.

Infallible men in local leadership positions seem to be non-existent except in historical content.

[Kipper]

Roy wrote:

Three words.

Mountain Meadows Massacre

Willie Handcart Company

[Author]

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