[kotm]

Carburettor wrote:

kotm wrote:

I guess you were lucky enough to not have gone through the trauma I have gone through in the church. So why would I seek help from within when that very institution is soely responsible for my truama?

I suspect I garbled my response. I was trying to say that it is ridiculous that someone should need to pay for therapy to resolve trauma experienced in a religious setting. The fact that religious settings can be associated with trauma reflects badly on the religion. Having to pay for treatment to address it makes it all the more abhorrent.

Let me try again; it is terrible that you should have experienced trauma in a religious setting — and even worse that you should subsequently have to hand over money to address it.

This is such a silly and immature way of looking at this. If you broke your hand, and someone told you to see a doctor would you have the same attitude?

I don’t mean to be rude – but I find your attitude to be incredibly tone deaf.

What exactly do you suggest?

[kotm]

Carburettor wrote:

kotm wrote:

That’s a good point. I am not seeing a therapist as of right now, but am currently in the process of trying to find one.

Nothing personal, but the American obsession with therapy really irks me. It’s such a first-world compulsion. The vast majority of humanity has no access to therapists to help unravel their angst and mistreatment at the hands of others.

Personally, I feel that if the gospel were doing its job properly, there would be no need for such support.

Why should you or anyone else have to pay for the services of a third party to help you resolve conflict in a religious setting? To me, “conflict in a religious setting” reflects poorly on everyone.

I guess you were lucky enough to not have gone through the trauma I have gone through in the church. So why would I seek help from within when that very institution is soely responsible for my truama?

[kotm]

Roy wrote:

Specifically on the church culture surrounding the importance of keeping property beautiful and well maintained, SWK said the following in 1974 in his talk “God Will Not Be Mocked.”

Quote:

Now, brothers and sisters, we have launched a cleanup campaign. We are a throw-away people. Trash piles grow faster than population by far. Now we ask you to clean up your homes and your farms. “Man is the keeper of the land, and not its possessor.”

Broken fences should be mended or removed. Unused barns should be repaired, roofed, painted, or removed. Sheds and corrals should be repaired and painted, or removed. Weedy ditch banks should be cleared. Abandoned homes could probably be razed. We look forward to the day when, in all of our communities, urban and rural, there would be a universal, continued movement to clean and repair and paint barns and sheds, build sidewalks, clean ditch banks, and make our properties a thing of beauty to behold.

We have asked leaders of youth groups, auxiliary organizations, and priesthood quorums to give power to this concentrated action for beautification.

There seems to be a desire to look well maintained and kept as individuals, as families, and as communities.

Reminds me of going to stake dances. I’m not sure if it was church wide or up to the stakes but I remember when the dress code was basically church attire. And when I was about 16 they relaxed it somewhat but it was still pretty lame. I think for guys it was a minimum of a collard shirt and long pants, and for girls it was long pants and a “modest” top. They then would have adult cheperones at the front door to basically check people for this which was even weirder. I thought it was odd to have a dress code for something such as a stake dance

[kotm]

PazamaManX wrote:

About 10-15 year ago or so, I remember watching a news clip reporting on the prevalence of Utah parents buying their young adult daughters implants. The usual reason for getting these implants was so that she would be more able to attract an RM.

I was just in Utah last weekend. Every time I go, I am always struck at how… nice… everything looks. Most people I saw dressed a little better in their casual wear (e.g. polos instead of t-shirts). The buildings and landscaping often look like a little more money has been put into them. The most striking thing I remember seeing on my trip was a large fountain in a McDonald’s drive-thru. Can’t say I’ve seen that in any other drive-thru I’ve been in. You can find exceptions of course, but in general, that state always seems very concerned with its outward appearance.

Most of my family is from Utah. (cousins, uncles, grandparents). Still remember how disgusted by grandma was when I wore red vans that “looked old” when we went up to visit them. I also remember my grandpa constantly talking up city creek center like it’s the best thing since sliced bread. People from SLC seem to be very proud of all that new development for some strange reason. I think it’s because like you said it’s new and shiny or whatever. I even have a friend who lives in SLC, talks up the place like it’s a utopia. My grandparents have passed, so my family really doesn’t have reason to visit there anymore. And honestly I’m kind of glad. I have no clue how non-members, or members like myself who are a bit more progressive survive up there.

[kotm]

AmyJ wrote:

I think that it might be an unintended consequence of encouraging women to “stay at home” and be “home-centered” instead of “career centered”. If you caretake your husband as the primary breadwinner for 20 years while raising kids and the like – you literally can’t afford for him to “stop paying attention” to you as he is your source of retirement… and plastic surgery is a way to “keep his attention during his midlife crisis” (at least on the surface) so that you aren’t “replaced by a younger model”.

Not that the grass is necessarily greener on the career side. Becoming the witchlike wizened crone is the narrative for being single and undefended – and discriminated against. There are statistics out there that show bust size and attractiveness raise income. I had a friend in college who was a waitress and she reported a significant tip increase on those days she wore makeup. A blatant example comes to us from Mythbusters actually.

Quote:

Storm in a D-Cup: …They focused on the tips Kari collected from the first 80 male customers on each shift. During the “small” and “medium” shifts, she collected $72 in tips, while the “large” shift yielded $98, with both men and women tipping almost 40% more. The team classified the myth as confirmed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(2014_season)” class=”bbcode_url”>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(2014_season)

I don’t know if it is a primarily female self-image thing and/or a self-preservation mechanism – but I doubt that our religion and religious culture are immune from it – and I actually think that our religious culture makes it harder to see women for who they are because of the intense focus on “performing gender” our religious culture has.

That’s so sad. I saw that quite a bit of that in my homeward growing up. And it had a weird ripple effect where the women in the ward were seemingly having a compeititon amongst each other who could become the fittest, most attractive and most loved by their husbands. Apparently the relief society in my ward was having weekly nuskin meetings or whatever they were called. It really did a number on many women’s self esteem. It’s really messed up. And yep you nailed it with the attractiveness = more money and success. It’s such a sad thing.

[kotm]

DarkJedi wrote:

This is a question for your therapist. If you believe your LDS therapist is not cutting it try a non-LDS therapist or a different LDS one. Sometimes therapists tell us (or help us to recognize stuff for ourselves) that we don’t want to hear. That doesn’t mean their wrong.

That’s a good point. I am not seeing a therapist as of right now, but am currently in the process of trying to find one.

[kotm]

AmyJ wrote:

I have read through this question a few times now… and I wind up with more questions:)

A) People are good, bad, thoughtful, thoughtless, and all the directions possible.

The point of view we bring to the table, the experience is a game-changer. Our perception of a situation determines a lot of the meaning of any given situation.

C) I get the sense from your post that there is a lot of anger, dis-ease and discontent based on interacting with others. Maybe there is stuff going on subconsciously that needs to be eased, soothed, processed, and contented before you take the next step in becoming endowed.

D) The book by C.S. Lewis called “The Screwtape Letters” has quite a few passages about how people’s dealings with each other to focus on disconnect and offense are not necessarily the way to being the best Christian possible – that might help ease some of the sting you are expressing dealing with fellow humans.

My experience may not be helpful though – I found myself in relation to God similar to post Garden of Eden cast off and pre-angelic attendants and truth… I do feel that if there is a God, like Adam, I am waiting for the “further light and knowledge God promised to send” and I am not confident in the messengers that say they are from God right now.

I think you nailed it with point ”C” here to be honest. There is a ton of anger related to instances of being mistreated. Mistreated by fellow members growing up, and even Youth leaders. I know exactly who it was, their names, their faces and exactly what they did to me. What really pisses me off most is seeing those who treated me so poorly are basically winning at life. Meanwhile, everyday is a struggle thanks to the trauma these people have caused me. Feels like there’s no justice and they’ll never have to face the consequences for their actions. I have severe anxiety, can’t seem to make friends, can’t seem to date. (lds girls just aren’t interested in me). All thanks to these people. There’s a wedge, a mental block there that’s preventing me from moving forward. From socializing within the church, etc. I always look around and see people dating, and often wonder wtf is wrong with me. Often times I really feel like I wasn’t even meant to be.

[kotm]

Doesn’t shock me since members of the church are often into material things, despite constantly preaching against it. I still recall a testimony meeting where my Bishop was warning the youth to not be caught up with worldy ways. Meanwhile his wife was a walking barbie doll with implants, botox, the whole 9 yards. Oh and he just made his year BMW purchase too.

Really just feeds into that narrative that members of the church are fake

[kotm]

Carburettor wrote:

kotm wrote:

Are interfaith relationships/marriages difficult to maintain?

Well done for giving this issue serious thought. I imagine that few people plan to begin a relationship that risks unravelling over time. The relative dynamics and chances of success will be influenced by your background and your red lines in respect of your relationship with a partner and your relationship with your faith.

To make any type of meaningful comment, I’d like more information about your church background. Are you a convert, or were you raised in an LDS church family? Did you attend Seminary in your youth? Did you serve a full-time mission? Do you actively participate in church meetings, and do you serve in a calling? Do you hold a current temple recommend and attend a temple periodically?

I live outside the U.S. in an area where members marry nonmembers all the time — or they risk not marrying at all. I am therefore reasonably acquainted with the considerations because I see how things unfold in a church context.

I was raised in the church. Out west, but not in Utah. My parents were and are great examples of members. They take a very non-judgemental attitude towards things. However I never really gelled well with the church and it’s culture. While I don’t live in Utah, many Utah members move down here and bring their culture and attitudes down here and seemed to have ruined it for a lot of people. I was always the guy who didn’t do traditional things. I drank caffiene (still do), hung out with other outcasts in school and so on.

I did attend seminary growing up. However it felt nothing like a competition to see who is the most faithful. We had scripture mastery, and I never bothered with it. But if you completed it you got your photo up on the wall — so it basically turned into a shrine of who appeared more faithful and so on.

I did not serve a mission. This was due to health difficulties that arose shortly after I began the application process. To this day it still grinds my gears seeing people go on their missions as if it’s some kind of big accompmlisment and makes them more faithful. I cannot stand most RM’s as in my experience they tend to be the most arrogant and self deluded indivuals I have come across.

I am a lot more active than I was 4-5 years ago. I used to just attend sacrament meeting in my family ward. I now attend my YSA ward regulary for the full two hours. I quite enjoy it. It’s a good ward, but I have to drive about 100 miles for it. Not a big deal, but beats the heck out of attending the judgemental clicky YSA wards in my hometown.

I currently do not have a calling. And I am not endowed, and haven’t been to the Temple to do ordinances for a very long time. I do have desires to be endowed and have begun taking temple prep classes via my YSA ward.

I guess what I’m trying to get it is growing up in the church was difficult for me. I still have quite an axe to grind, and just cannot let go. And I fear it may be somewhat of a stumbling block for everything.

[kotm]

DarkJedi wrote:

That said, I do think the Church in general and perhaps more so members of the church in the Corridor like to play the persecution card with some regularity.

All. The. Flippin’. Time.

Often times I see this as an excuse within Mormon circles to be exlusive to outsiders.

[kotm]

In my own personal life I have only seen “hate” towards Mormons once. It was in a Bio class in college, and the girl sitting at my lab station went on about how much she hates Mormons and all that. She brought it up because the “Mormon temple” that was being built here was somehow brought up. While I didn’t say anything my heart kind of sank. It made me sad that she feels that way towards members of the church. However I had no desire to seek revenge, or say something mean. But at the same time I tried to understand her POV. This was important because as a member I had an extremely difficult time growing up in the church.

I have had people in my early years such as in High School when they find out I’m Mormon say things like “You know Mormons aren’t Christian, right?” But I really don’t view that as hate. It’s just simply a misunderstanding and probably something their pastor repeats on a daily basis every Sunday. So I would never hold it against them.

Other than that experience everyone else is pretty nice about it, or really just don’t care. I try to reverse this and think of it backwards. If someone tells me they are Catholic, Jewish, Muslim , etc how do I react? I don’t really care.

Also is there a lot of anti-mormon discourse online? Yeah — there absolutely is! But there’s also anti-anything online. I don’t see that as persecution. People are mean, and will say their unfiltered opinions online because there’s no recourse like getting punched for said opinnions. (Not implying someone should be punched for their views). Mormons are however an easy target. The media or major figures can get away with mocking us becuase we aren’t going to fight back, and that’s how should always be. But it’s really just best to ignore it imo.

I still remember those chants during that BYU/Oregon football game. It was “F the Mormons”. And it wasn’t the whole stadium. It was maybe 25 drunk Oregon students at most. However I was horrified reading comments on Dnews from supposed members of the church. The comments ranged from revenge seeking by suspending/expelling the students, all the way to boycotting Oregon and their conference. This was shocking to me. I don’t think we as members of the church should react this way. This made me incredibly sad.

I will say I hold mixed views on Mormons too. And I’m Mormon! lol I try not to let it eat me away, but sometimes I cannot ignore my own personal experiences in the church. If you read my previous posts you’d get a good idea. So at the end of the day, I can kind of understand why someone may have negative attitudes towards the church. But I am 100% against any sort of hate. No matter who it’s from. And essentially I don’t think we are hated universally.

[kotm]

DarkJedi wrote:

Broadening your outreach could also include volunteering at the local animal shelter, food bank or soup kitchen.

If music is in your areas of interest, find a community chorus or band. Or get involved in a community theater – even if you don’t act, there are lots of behind the scenes people.

Visit museums or zoos.

Juice and non-alcoholic bars still exist, and are actually becoming a “thing” (there are now liquor type stores popping up that sell only non-alcoholic beverages).

Take an adult education course for something that interests you – anything – painting, photography, cooking, whatever.

Sitting around feeling sorry for yourself isn’t going to solve your problem.

I will definentley keep an eye out for some groups to join! I appreciate. And I do agree about not feeling sorry for myself. That is probably my biggest weakness.

[kotm]

Old-Timer wrote:

Roy said what I was going to say.

Keep working on what you are doing – but broaden the outreach.

Glad you are doing well.

Thanks! To both you and Roy.

I am trying my best. I’m also trying to get back in shape too.

I don’t think it’s going to work with that girl. However what that experience did is it gave me a boost of confidence I haven’t seen in quite sometime.

Could I maybe get an example as to what you both mean by broadening my outreach?

[kotm]

Roy wrote:

Yeah, it sounds like having some “just friends” would be great for you. We all need that kind of support.

It is hard though. Because often times I fear I just don’t fit in. That I was simply born in the wrong region and I’m just not compatible with members locally. Often times it feels while I try my best to love the church, it doesn’t seem to love me back.

[kotm]

Roy wrote:

I know that in church culture there is an expectation to find our marriage partner. However, I think it might work better to just relax and develop some friendships. It sounds like these women that you met are nice and fun to be around. Maybe that can be enough. That takes all the pressure off. Will she find out about your past? Sure, but if she becomes your friend she will also find out about who you are today. Keep it in the friend zone and maybe romance will develop down the road. But even if romance never develops, at least you found some cool friends and didn’t make it weird.

kotm wrote:

I am working towards endowment. It is something I have been contemplating for the past 365 days. However for some reason I just cannot jump the gun. Partially becuase I worry about my struggles with pornography. I worry I would mess up, or fall back on my vices when endowed. I am currently getting help. I have been listening to Sara Brewers pornography help podcasts weekly as they are a great help. And have actually helped me cut down on my pornography use over the past year.

I think I understand your struggle. You will absolutely still struggle after an endowment… just like everyone else struggles with their issues after being endowed. When I was endowed, I imagined that God was building a castle with a moat to protect me from the temptations of Satan. When I still succumbed to my vices, I felt like I had opened the draw bridge and invited the enemy inside. I was Benedict Arnold. God had given me all the tools to never again struggle (and God is perfect so of course he provided a way for me to be obedient) and I STILL fell to temptation. I felt like the lowest of the low.

However, now I am a married father of two teenage children that are preparing to fly away. My perspective has changed. 1) congratulations! you have a healthy sex drive. God gave this to us to motivate us to form lasting relationships and have families. It is not only normal but it is also good. 2) Pornography can have some dark corners and can become habit forming but at the core it is just naked people having sex. Again, it is natural and normal to crave that. Perhaps it might help to reframe your porn craving as if they were food cravings. There are plenty of foods that are bad for you. Empty calories etc. Perhaps a donut. You can eat a donut and know that it wasn’t a great choice but it makes no sense to beat yourself up about it. Nor does eating the donut define you or make you a bad person. Problems can certainly develop if you eat only donuts or even mostly donuts. However, saying that you will eat nothing until marriage (to prevent your donut habit) is an even bigger problem.

One way to manage your craving is to masturbate. This can help to get it out of your system and satiate the craving that is driving you to pornography. Even within marriage there are lots of couples that use masturbation to help manage the difference in sexual desire levels between a high desire partner and a low desire partner.

This is all normal, normal, so very normal. You are on a very familiar journey. Good luck friend.

That’s a really good point. In your first paragraph. There’s nothing wrong with just being friends, and I’m definentley going to take things slowly. I’m not too keen on marrying right away. In fact marriage kind of terrifies me. However almost hitting my 30s I am also terrified at the thought of being alone as that is what state I’m currently in. It really does feel like a double edged sword. But to even consider marriage I need to get my crap together. I don’t even have a career yet as I’m still in my final weeks of grad school which includes an unpaid internship. So it’s been hard finding stable employement at the moment.

I am just excited to have someone who I could talk to. I know it sounds elementary but this is the 2nd person in my ward I have interacted with. The biggest struggle though is I’m not very versed when it comes to dating, or even hanging out within the church.

And hearing what you said about temple endowment seems to be a common theme as of late. That does make me feel better.

I do agree about sexuality. We often get shamed to constantly ignore it and just lock it up. However trying to understand it better benefits in the long run.

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